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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 21:50 
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Joo Too
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Japsican wrote:
I remember lorre saying this to me in the past...but I found FL3 and P4 slower for sure when comparing the same thicknesses of sponge. Lorre, if I recall, you were comparing different sponge thickness, correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said, however, P-1R certainly isn't fast by any stretch.

I think for most people, this happens to them with grippy pips:
Since the grip is much higher in P4 and FL3 it causes a higher trajectory ball, or a float ball (or both) if your stroke isn't matching the spin of the ball speed-wise. This will cause the ball to sail long. Because it's sailing longer, the perception is that the rubber is faster, but really it's because there is less spin and/or higher trajectory.

P-1R has a bit more slippage, and therefore against a lot of spin, it's a bit more forgiving with regard to needing a lot of bat speed. P4 is more forgiving in the sense that it absorbs far more pace. So, depending on your needs or opponent, one can be "better" than the other. For me, P-1R is better against super spinny loopers. P4 is better against flat drivers, low spin players, and hitters. But like anything, all rubbers can be used against any style.


I was comparing Feint III in 1.3 and P4 in 1.5. So no. :)

You might be right with your theory. I tested P4 a couple of years ago when I wasn't as an accomplished chopper as I am today.

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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 06:16 
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Quick Q about these 2 pips. I currently use p4 1mm on BTY Joo and think I'll try 1mm p1r from the things I've heard, do you think that it will take a lot of time to get used to the increase in speed or not? Do you think I will have to change my technique in my chop? Any thoughts much appreciated, thanks.

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S/U 1-Blade:Joo Sae Hyuk ST FH: BTY T05FX MAX BH: TSP Curl P1r 1-1.3 mm
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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 08:12 
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ModernDef wrote:
Quick Q about these 2 pips. I currently use p4 1mm on BTY Joo and think I'll try 1mm p1r from the things I've heard, do you think that it will take a lot of time to get used to the increase in speed or not? Do you think I will have to change my technique in my chop? Any thoughts much appreciated, thanks.


No and no. :)

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PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 23:36 
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Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
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ModernDef wrote:
Quick Q about these 2 pips. I currently use p4 1mm on BTY Joo and think I'll try 1mm p1r from the things I've heard, do you think that it will take a lot of time to get used to the increase in speed or not? Do you think I will have to change my technique in my chop? Any thoughts much appreciated, thanks.

I disagree that there is absolutely no technique change, but agree it won't take long to adjust. It's small.

There is more grip and bite on the P-4, and against super spinny loops you will need to swing faster and/or angle the blade more open (more flat toward the table)... you will notice it.

P-1R will take care of a lot of that spin for you, where as P-4 will not...I think against sidespin as well, P-4 is trickier due to more grip, so you will need to be more aware of sidespin on loops and short game.

The trade off is that P-4 will take care of the pace more...

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 01:46 
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ModernDef wrote:
Quick Q about these 2 pips. I currently use p4 1mm on BTY Joo and think I'll try 1mm p1r from the things I've heard, do you think that it will take a lot of time to get used to the increase in speed or not? Do you think I will have to change my technique in my chop? Any thoughts much appreciated, thanks.


While I agree with Japsican's reply in general, although I kind of look at all this a bit simpler and my theoretical knowledge of pips is not as deep as his.

Your technique should NOT change no matter which of these two pips you use. A chop is a chop. There is a certain way you swing, chop the ball, and do a follow-through. You also align your body, position feet, etc etc. None of this should change, regardless of the rubber you use.

Now, is it going to feel different switching from P4 to P1r - yes, it will, there is no question about it. The rubber will feel a bit faster, however if your technique is solid you will adjust in no time. In my first post I gave an example of a good chopper trying out P4 after playing w/ P1 and he adjusted instantly. The same was true for my coach who said that he actually liked it a lot. If you switch the other way (p4 -> p1) the switch should be just as easy. Again there won't be a great deal of adjustments necessary, just a few micro-adjustments here and there. IMHO this is the same adjustment you would make as if you were to try the same rubber on two different blades.


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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2017, 05:02 
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Perhaps it's just semantics. To me, any change in bat angle, path, or speed is a technique change. If your angle is 45 degrees with one rubber and 50 degrees with another, it requires a technical change because one's muscle memory will revert to baseline during play. Same goes for bat speed.

I will admit that I probably am way more sensitive to equipment changes than most, which one would think would keep me from doing it, but it doesn't. :lol:

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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2018, 14:37 
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Just a quick update to my mini-blog on the P1 vs P4 topic.

So it's been two months since I last posted here. I've had roughly 7-8 sessions since November. Not much EJing honestly, although I ordered a sheet of red H3 to try on my FH (this is what my coach uses)... I gotta replace my worn Tenergy soon so I might try an H3 for one session since it's pretty inexpensive. 99% that I will go back to the 05 but at $20 the H3 is worth a try.

My BH has been P4 without any change. Still love the way it chops. My coach has given it a try on a number of occasions and even ordered one for himself. The one thing I do not like about this LP is you don't get any "free" points if that makes sense. You have to work for it each and every point. Once people loop a couple pushes, they realize how direct and predictable this LP is. They get used to it quick. You have to constantly vary your return, chop hard, push deep. If you go and watch Shiono play, you will see the type of points he played. It's all or nothing.

On the upside, once you master the beast and get used to the lack of speed -- the spin and control will be out of this planet. As long as you go for the chop and match or exceed the incoming spin (as per explanation by Japsican and others) your chops will be deadly. Once I warm up I can easily chop 4-5 loops which has never been the case for me when I played the P1R. My technique is slowly improving and I am starting to get the hang of what chopping is all about, partially thanks to this rubber.

I have a new video posted if anyone wants to see the P4 in action.
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32142


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 01:56 
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So gents, I'm currently using FL3. I was using P1-R but I find pushing with "real" LPs really inconsistent, often making mistakes. When I move to SP or SP-like LPs such as FL3, I'm much more consistent.

I've always read that P4 is the TSP equivalent of FL3. How true is this?

Ideally, I'd like a rubber which reacts like FL3 in terms of short-game (I don't mind it being *more* responsive to spin, like FL3 is, but I like to dig float balls a bit) but has more spin on full-blooded chops. I find high-level opponents struggled infinitely more with my chops when using P1-R than FL3.

If P4 is a half-way house, e.g. similar short-game to FL3 but heavier backspin on chops, I'd sign up immediately.

Can anyone offer a comparison? I'm only really interested in the maximum sponge thickness (for the SP-like feel).

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 03:01 
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dunc wrote:
I've always read that P4 is the TSP equivalent of FL3. How true is this?


Both are grippy with soft sponges so yeah they should be almost identical. P4 is a clone of FL3 "developed" and released by TSP after Koji left Butterfly.

dunc wrote:
but has more spin on full-blooded chops. I find high-level opponents struggled infinitely more with my chops when using P1-R than FL3.


Let's assume for a moment that FL3 = P4. When I compared P1 and P4 I actually found the opposite to be true (with my game, my chops and against my opponents). This was for the thin sponge. Spinwise I think it's on par with P1R if not more spinny. If I happen to chop into the net the ball rushes toward me, and this is how I "measure" spin on my chops.... Of course YMMV and you must have an active chop as it has very little deception/reversal. Also I think P1R in thick sponge might be a completely different animal.

Maybe someone who tried both in max can chime in, but I am very happy with P4 0.5 at the moment and I cannot imagine using one in 1.3-1.5 as it would be super slow.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 03:05 
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Also, this is something I just noticed in your signature... you may want to try a real chopping blade not a different rubber. Both Filus and Abusev use FL3 and their chops are insanely spinny. Just look at the trajectory of their chops and look at the spin on the ball when they miss.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 03:20 
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I've played against FL3 (granted, thinner sponge - 0.5mm) and P1-R from the same chopper (our league's best classical defender with genuinely excellent, orthodox chopping technique). The spin difference is like night and day - I can almost hit through his FL3 chops. They do get heavy, but it takes a lot longer for the spin to "work up", e.g. 4 or 5 loops rather than 2 or 3 with the P1-R.

I also notice it first-hand myself; my regular playing partner loops my FL3 chops much more consistently than the P1-R. I've used FL3 for a full season with JSH and ended up going back to the P1-R because of the lack of spin.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 03:37 
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dunc wrote:
I've played against FL3 (granted, thinner sponge - 0.5mm) and P1-R from the same chopper (our league's best classical defender with genuinely excellent, orthodox chopping technique). The spin difference is like night and day - I can almost hit through his FL3 chops. They do get heavy, but it takes a lot longer for the spin to "work up", e.g. 4 or 5 loops rather than 2 or 3 with the P1-R.

I also notice it first-hand myself; my regular playing partner loops my FL3 chops much more consistently than the P1-R. I've used FL3 for a full season with JSH and ended up going back to the P1-R because of the lack of spin.


The only way to know is to try the P4 yourself or have your chopper friend try it. If it's truly a clone like everyone says - you might be disappointed.

Also, to give you a bit more info to digest, when my coach (2500-2600 level) chops with my P4 setup or his P1R and I am on the other side looping, believe me it gets extremely spinny on chop #1, not 2, 4 or 5. Extremely is an understatement. I don't think I have ever been able to loop more than 3 or 4 of his chops, and yes I can loop underpin just fine and my FH loop is decent. So in the end, it's the chopping technique more than anything.


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 05:31 
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notfound123 wrote:
dunc wrote:
I've played against FL3 (granted, thinner sponge - 0.5mm) and P1-R from the same chopper (our league's best classical defender with genuinely excellent, orthodox chopping technique). The spin difference is like night and day - I can almost hit through his FL3 chops. They do get heavy, but it takes a lot longer for the spin to "work up", e.g. 4 or 5 loops rather than 2 or 3 with the P1-R.

I also notice it first-hand myself; my regular playing partner loops my FL3 chops much more consistently than the P1-R. I've used FL3 for a full season with JSH and ended up going back to the P1-R because of the lack of spin.


The only way to know is to try the P4 yourself or have your chopper friend try it. If it's truly a clone like everyone says - you might be disappointed.

Also, to give you a bit more info to digest, when my coach (2500-2600 level) chops with my P4 setup or his P1R and I am on the other side looping, believe me it gets extremely spinny on chop #1, not 2, 4 or 5. Extremely is an understatement. I don't think I have ever been able to loop more than 3 or 4 of his chops, and yes I can loop underpin just fine and my FH loop is decent. So in the end, it's the chopping technique more than anything.
That's P4 you're talking about though. Perhaps it *does* generate more backspin on chops than FL3?

To be fair, it also depends on the incoming spin I guess. FL3/P4 should be a heavier first chop than P1-R if the spin is anything less than heavy.

I just checked back to Dec 2016 and I was having the same discussion on my blog! The general consensus appears to be that P1-R is heavier on chops than P4, and P4 is heavier than FL3.

I guess I just need to suck it up and buy it.

_________________
[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


Last edited by dunc on 15 Feb 2018, 07:34, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 06:16 
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dunc wrote:
To be fair, it also depends on the incoming spin I guess. FL3/P4 should be a heavier first chop than P1-R if the spin is anything less than heavy.

I just checked back to Dec 2016 and I was having the same discussion on my blog! The general consensus appears to be that P1-R is heavier on chops than P4, and P4 is heavier than FL3.

I guess I just need to suck it up and buy it.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


have you seen this one?
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31857


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PostPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 07:35 
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I hadn't, until now. What am I looking at? Seems to be more of a discussion of which rubber is more grippy than which puts more backspin on chops.

I've bought the P4 :( Will see if I can grab our league's top player to do some testing (perhaps alongside the P1-R too).

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, Butterfly Joo Saehyuk, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
Full list (PM me for price): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xNLwjz5uZq_FcCowBgZ4zk1NwU83xVyCRoo0zhphu3w/edit?usp=sharing
==================================================================================================================================================
My blog: "Learning to play: as a modern defender": http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=22254
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg


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