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PostPosted: 18 Apr 2016, 13:18 
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Bobobo wrote:
Japsican wrote:
Bobobo wrote:
What determines the spin on the ball after you make contact with the ball using long pips? Is it the stroke that you use or the spin that your oppenent put on the ball?

Both. Some LPs can create spin more than others depending non how grippy they are. But some LPs are very slippery and some are very grippy (for an LP).

For example, with sponged p-1r. If I get underspin from my opponent and push it back using an inverted style horizontal push, I can send back no spin or slight underspin depending on how vigorously I brush the ball. If I do a flat hit or roll I can send back a dead ball...light top...or moderate top if he gives me enough spin to work with, and depending on how much I brush the ball.

What stroke (aside from the chop) and type of long pips should i use to maximize underspin against topspin?


Block, the chop block at table is very effective too.

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XVT balsa carbon 10mm / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH Globe 979 Long Pips OX / Play Left-handed shakehand
Stiga Def Wood / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH GD CC LP OX .. Play Left-handed
Cpen SOS Wood / 4H 729 802-40 2.0 / BH GD Talon use righthanded shakehand grip
HARDBAT / Shakehand Hock 3 ply / Friendship Dr Evil OX .. Play Right-handed


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PostPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 19:55 
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Thanks a lot kees, some great tips!

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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 16:49 
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Reactivating this post ...

Thank you Kees, for this really useful thread... Some of your troubleshooting tips really helped..

It's now been more than 2 months, since I've made the switch to LPs...My setup is as mentioned in my profile... ..I started off with Pogo OX, but having heard only good things about the 388d-1, from so many forum members, I decided to switch, around 2-3 weeks back; and I need some further help, guidance, troubleshooting...

MY CURRENT PLAY STYLE

I can't post any videos, cause phones are not allowed on the playing-floor, and I (or anyone I know) don't have a camcorder. So, I'll try explaining my play-style, in detail, the best I can.


I'm right-handed.

I have issues with my knees, right-shoulder, elbow, lower-back, neck - aches/pain and stiffness.. Due calcifications, tennis-elbow, and other sundry rheumatic issues... I also suffer from acute insomnia...This affects my day-to-day functioning, and ofcourse, my game-play too. Yes, I'm working on reducing all this, but it's a long road.

My lateral (side-to-side) footwork has become pretty bad, and seems to be getting worse. I often find myself, playing BH, when it's clearly an FH shot, or get caught wrong-footed. Strangely (and it's a good thing, I guess), I'm pretty okay moving away and towards the table... I still have more than decent upper-body reflexes, and a good reach...

These days my game-play is highly erratic... I feel that I have almost stopped attacking, on either wing; and when I do, I usually mess it up.

I tend to push or chop (try to), from either wing, and passive-block. I don't rely as much on spin-continuation/reversal. I prefer creating my own spin. Most of my game-play relies on spin manipulation/variation, speed variation, ball-placement, and service. I do twiddle, to create and vary spin. However, the type of inverted rubber I have, is not very conducive to chopping. The balls usually goes high or just long.

Where my LP playing style is concerned, I can't slot myself in any particular style... I play close-to, and away from the table. When I'm playing close, I push, and bump (Almost always, unsuccessfully). When, I'm away from the table, I'll chop, or push. My blade-angle, while pushing is usually like it'd be with an inverted. When chopping, it's usually the same, or halfway between inverted style, and vertical. Lately, on someone's advice, I'm trying to put-in more wrist action.

While blocking, my blade angle, is almost always vertical.


LP ISSUES I NEED HELP, GUIDANCE, TROUBLESHOOTING WITH

    - I can't seem to generate/create enough of my own back-spin. My chops, away from the table and over-the-table pushes with LP, although, have a bit back-spin, don't not seem to bother my opponents, for most parts - They simply whack it off flat-out.

    - 9/10 times my bumps go long, no matter how soft/light I do it. It's probably due to a technique issue. Getting it right, consistently, has been my biggest challenge.. On the rare occasion my aggressive bumps do land (by fluke), I just win the point outright.

    - 9/10 times my side-swipes go long - BH side to FH side, BH side to BH side.

    - Passive Blocks land high (with little or no reversal), or most of times, just fly-off long.

    - My returns on Light or Loose top-spins land in the net, at times..

    - Pushing or chopping the ball, against a heavy back-spin laden chop or push, at times, results in the ball popping up.

Inputs, suggestions, guidance, help, would be most appreciated..

My apologies for this lengthy post...


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PostPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 18:41 
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As you have admitted your strokes are more akin to inverted than LP ones, why not try a slow spinny inverted rubber on the B/H e.g. Gewo return drive 1.7mm.or for the same but a harder feel Musa 1.5mm. Alternatively maybe a spinny short pip like Spinlord Degu, 1.5mm.or 802-40 1.5mm might work for you, being less sensitive to opponents spin

Also unless you are hitting hard topspin drives and loops on the FH a drop in sponge thickness to 1.8mm or 1.9mm will give better chops and short game control.


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 03:52 
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ChasFox wrote:
As you have admitted your strokes are more akin to inverted than LP ones, why not try a slow spinny inverted rubber on the B/H e.g. Gewo return drive 1.7mm.or for the same but a harder feel Musa 1.5mm. Alternatively maybe a spinny short pip like Spinlord Degu, 1.5mm.or 802-40 1.5mm might work for you, being less sensitive to opponents spin

Also unless you are hitting hard topspin drives and loops on the FH a drop in sponge thickness to 1.8mm or 1.9mm will give better chops and short game control.
Hi Chasfox,

Thanks for the response and suggestions...

When was considering making the switch to a material rubber, I did consider SP.. However, I decided to switch to LP, cause I got the impression that control, spin manipulation, and even blocking would be better with LPs.. Plus, I noticed that most defenders (pros, amateurs, club players and local division players etc), both, online and offline, used LPs.. Another factor that made be favour LP, was that I got to try it, before switching, since a player at another club was already using it.. No such luck with SP.

Anyway, its just been a lil over 2 months, since I've made the switch to LPs... I don't want to give-up, just yet... I do want to know where I'm going wrong and correct it.. If, after all my efforts, I still fail, then perhaps, I'll try SP.

In the meantime, I'm not averse to trying out different LPs, inverted rubber, or even blade.. Budget permitting, of course... I'd prefer cheap Chinese stuff.



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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 04:24 
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Location: Podunk Pongville USA MALE
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Blade: XVT Balsa Carbon 10mm all
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Two months is not close to learn properly and develop a feel.

A lot of info here in one place. Read the intro then make your decision, well worth 5-10 minutes of your time.

Link .... North Little Rock Table Tennis Group timeline page on Facebook

https://m.facebook.com/NorthLittleRockT ... =bookmarks

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Panda Drive / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max / Play right-handed
XVT balsa carbon 10mm / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH Globe 979 Long Pips OX / Play Left-handed shakehand
Stiga Def Wood / 4H Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0 / BH GD CC LP OX .. Play Left-handed
Cpen SOS Wood / 4H 729 802-40 2.0 / BH GD Talon use righthanded shakehand grip
HARDBAT / Shakehand Hock 3 ply / Friendship Dr Evil OX .. Play Right-handed


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PostPosted: 11 Jun 2018, 05:47 
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One small thing ,try blocking straight off the bounce starting at serve return instead of passive block to put the pressure back to the other side,sometimes a slight lifting motion helps as you block,this works with that lp in ox....if it works you will gain some confidence to try more

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PostPosted: 12 Jun 2018, 22:06 
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ootbs wrote:
However, the type of inverted rubber I have, is not very conducive to chopping. The balls usually goes high or just long.

This sounds more of a technical issue and is probably not caused by your equipment. I have been using Vega Europe and it chops good enough. Anyway, as you admit not attacking a lot (I read it as "looping"), you might consider using some less bouncy rubbers such as VS>401 and alike, non-tensor (MarkV, Sriver, Marder, ...) or chinese rubbers (Hurricane, FS 729, ...) do work well, too. These greatly increase your consistency, especially when playing near the table. Anyway. User Kees (creator of this thread...) wrote an article "classic and modern defense - basic techniques and tactics" being discussed here. Unfortunately, the linked site seems to be discontinued and I could not find the article elsewhere on the web. So I take the liberty quoting his description how to execute a chop followed by an analysis of problems:

In order to perform a forehand chop you move out to the right and turn your body as indicated in paragraph 3. Remember
to raise your arm, bending it more than 90 degrees, and cock your wrist. Wait for the ball to drop until it is about
knee-high or at least well below the table-level; it should be beside you when it does that. Chop down, confidently and
energetically, fast while turning your upper body back to face the table. Make contact with the ball as near to 6 o’clock
as you possibly can and snap out your underarm and wrist. Follow through downward and forward before coming back up. Hop!

In order to perform a backhand chop you do the same, to the left. This time turn your body even more and, if necessary,
put your right foot before the left when chopping down. Follow through downward and forward before coming back up. Hop!

Different things can go wrong with this.
- The ball may sail over the table. In this case your chop has been going too much forward, because you have made contact
too early and too high. This is actually a mistake frequently made by beginners; they tend to feel a little awkward
when going down and hopping, and as a result their chops are too shallow. Try and go really down after hitting the ball,
before you are coming up.
- The ball may sail high (and be killed). Again, your chop is probably too shallow; go deep. Or you may have chopped with
not enough venom, in which case the incoming topspin makes the ball bounce off your bat; chop energetically and with
confidence.
- There is not enough backspin in the ball. Same story: your chop needs more vigour and depth. Go for it! The hop really
helps here...
- A cause of these three defects may also be the wrong use of long pips. Only the grippiest of pips will produce
significant backspin of its own, which means that you should not use your long pips if you are not quite certain that
on the incoming ball there is a lot of topspin which can be reversed into a lot of backspin.
- If the ball lands on your side of the table, you will probably have made contact too much on its backside, or you have
made contact with its bottom but you did not chop with enough energy.
- If your backhand chop isn’t going well (not enough backspin, landing short, or bouncing high) you may not be really
putting your weight on your left leg and as a result chop too shallow.
- You may also run into another problem: the incoming ball may be so fast that it doesn’t drop in time and you have to
deal with a high ball. This is awkward if you cannot smash, drive or loop it; attack is the best option here, but if
you must defend you should perform a chop block. Chop right down with much force and try to graze the backside of the
ball (at about 4 o’clock). Follow through as well as you can. Long pips offer another option in this case: block
hitting simply straight forward; with grippy pips you will produce a fairly dead ball, with less grippy pips maybe some
backspin; in any case be prepared for the next incoming fast topspin ball and chop this one!
- Finally you may have to deal with a ball aimed at your body. Step aside left or right, depending on whether you prefer
to chop with your forehand or backhand (it is useful making this choice a permanent one, so you will not hesitate) and
chop it. If there is no time for this, perform a backhand chop-block in front of you; make the downward motion very fast.


ootbs wrote:
I can't seem to generate/create enough of my own back-spin. My chops, away from the table and over-the-table pushes with LP, although, have a bit back-spin, don't not seem to bother my opponents, for most parts - They simply whack it off flat-out.

This might be a placement issue. Deep placement is your friend. Short balls - no matter how heavily loaded with backspin - are killed.

ootbs wrote:
- 9/10 times my bumps go long, no matter how soft/light I do it. It's probably due to a technique issue. Getting it right, consistently, has been my biggest challenge.. On the rare occasion my aggressive bumps do land (by fluke), I just win the point outright.
- 9/10 times my side-swipes go long - BH side to FH side, BH side to BH side.

Check if your grip on the blade is loose. If you hold your blade too tight, you loose consistency (and spin). For me, this is the biggest problem.

ootbs wrote:
- Passive Blocks land high (with little or no reversal), or most of times, just fly-off long.

Again, your grip on the blade might be too tight. But this stroke is dangerous. I try to avoid blocking as much as possible and use it as a variation only. As a defender, especially with LP, you do not want to play near the table, as you can't chop there properly (see Kees's hints). Staying near the table forces you to bring the ball down after having lifted it over the net. This can be done with topspin alone and LP are not suited to impart topspin on topspin balls. Perhaps this is your main problem?

ootbs wrote:
- My returns on Light or Loose top-spins land in the net, at times..

Commit yourself as much to the stroke as possible (body tension, wide and low stance, etc). Take the ball as late as possible, preferably below the table and chop energetically. Then it becomes easier to clear the net, as the balls trajectory will have to point upwards anyway.

ootbs wrote:
- Pushing or chopping the ball, against a heavy back-spin laden chop or push, at times, results in the ball popping up.

Have you tried to side-swipe those balls? This helps a lot, but the resulting ball is fairly dead. Placement must be deep on the table and you should back up quickly or it will be looped past you. Another option is to twiddle and push with inverted. Or twiddle and loop.

And most of all: avoid EJ'ing. This does not help at all. All legal LP do more or less the same, with only some variation in characteristics (I'm aware that most forum users here would disagree). Same with inverted. Professional and high class choppers use every type of rubber from maximum thickness tensor to thin classical sponge, from sticky to quite ungrippy surface.

Sorry for the long post, keep up chopping. Cheers!

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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 15:29 
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0x556c69 wrote:
This sounds more of a technical issue and is probably not caused by your equipment. I have been using Vega Europe and it chops good enough. Anyway, as you admit not attacking a lot (I read it as "looping"), you might consider using some less bouncy rubbers such as VS>401 and alike, non-tensor (MarkV, Sriver, Marder, ...) or chinese rubbers (Hurricane, FS 729, ...) do work well, too. These greatly increase your consistency, especially when playing near the table.

The Euro Vega is quite a forgiving rubber, and I like it a lot for looping.. It's also very good at lifting backspin ... The only thing is, that I feel it's very bouncy, especially while chopping... Probably cause I'm using it in Max thickness (?)... Anyway, you're right, when you say is probably a technique issue.

Yes, I'm looking for a less bouncy, cheap rubber. (preferably from AliExpress).. Based on recommendations received by forum members, I've shortlisted (in no particular order of preference)..

    - 729 FX-C (Can't find on Aliexpress)
    - Palio CJ8000 39° - 41°
    - Reactor Corbor
    - 729 FX EL Super Soft
    - LKT Pro XP/XT

0x556c69 wrote:
Anyway. User Kees (creator of this thread...) wrote an article "classic and modern defense - basic techniques and tactics" being discussed here.


Yep .. I've gone through a similar (perhaps same) tutorial... The problem with me is - that I follow it more-or-less while practising.. However, during actual gameplay, I just can't seem to put it to use.. it does not even occur to me, to follow what I have read/learnt/practised. ... Thanks, anyway.

ootbs wrote:
I can't seem to generate/create enough of my own back-spin. My chops, away from the table and over-the-table pushes with LP, although, have a bit back-spin, don't not seem to bother my opponents, for most parts - They simply whack it off flat-out.

0x556c69 wrote:
This might be a placement issue. Deep placement is your friend. Short balls - no matter how heavily loaded with backspin - are killed.

The issue is not just due the placement, but also due to the fact that I'm not keeping the ball low.. Pushes from over the table are fine, in terms of placement depth and height. But, chops/pushes from away, is where the problems lie..
ootbs wrote:
- 9/10 times my bumps go long, no matter how soft/light I do it. It's probably due to a technique issue. Getting it right, consistently, has been my biggest challenge.. On the rare occasion my aggressive bumps do land (by fluke), I just win the point outright.
- 9/10 times my side-swipes go long - BH side to FH side, BH side to BH side.

0x556c69 wrote:
Check if your grip on the blade is loose. If you hold your blade too tight, you loose consistency (and spin). For me, this is the biggest problem.

Yes, I do tend to have a very tight grip. I loosen it, whenever it occurs to me... Also, I sweat a lot on my palms, which makes me want to hold the blade tighter.
ootbs wrote:
- Passive Blocks land high (with little or no reversal), or most of times, just fly-off long.

Again, your grip on the blade might be too tight. But this stroke is dangerous. I try to avoid blocking as much as possible and use it as a variation only. As a defender, especially with LP, you do not want to play near the table, as you can't chop there properly (see Kees's hints). Staying near the table forces you to bring the ball down after having lifted it over the net. This can be done with topspin alone and LP are not suited to impart topspin on topspin balls. Perhaps this is your main problem?
ootbs wrote:
- My returns on Light or Loose top-spins land in the net, at times..

Commit yourself as much to the stroke as possible (body tension, wide and low stance, etc). Take the ball as late as possible, preferably below the table and chop energetically. Then it becomes easier to clear the net, as the balls trajectory will have to point upwards anyway.
ootbs wrote:
- Pushing or chopping the ball, against a heavy back-spin laden chop or push, at times, results in the ball popping up.

0x556c69 wrote:
Have you tried to side-swipe those balls? This helps a lot, but the resulting ball is fairly dead. Placement must be deep on the table and you should back up quickly or it will be looped past you. Another option is to twiddle and push with inverted. Or twiddle and loop.

I don't really use this stroke, cause when I do, I mostly mess it up. I haven't actually got down to learning this stroke. Any video tutorial on it ?
0x556c69 wrote:
And most of all: avoid EJ'ing. This does not help at all. All legal LP do more or less the same, with only some variation in characteristics (I'm aware that most forum users here would disagree). Same with inverted. Professional and high class choppers use every type of rubber from maximum thickness tensor to thin classical sponge, from sticky to quite ungrippy surface.

Noted.. But, its hard - since I'm new to the LP/defensive style of playing, I'm still trying to figure-out what does and does not work for me. ..
0x556c69 wrote:
Sorry for the long post, keep up chopping. Cheers!

No... Thank you, for spending so much time, detailing your suggestions... Much appreciated.


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 22:42 
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for a good idea as the to the range of attacking shots possible with LP have a look at the Coach McAfee or Geblock TT you tube videos


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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 03:39 
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ChasFox wrote:
for a good idea as the to the range of attacking shots possible with LP have a look at the Coach McAfee or Geblock TT you tube videos
Yes... Ive seen some of those.. The thing is, I think the good coach plays in a style, pretty different from mine, and seems to be a using a setup that's of a different type than mine.. So, I'm not sure if what he demonstrates would necessarily work for me..

Another thing I've realised that a lot of the LP related tips, tricks, tutorials, forums posts etc (especially the older ones) are from the celluloid ball era, and/or for Frictionless (or close to) type of LPs and once again, I not sure how they'd work with the new ball and/or grippy LPs... Of course, I do understand that certain things would undoubtedly be the same.

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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 03:48 
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I have only tried LP a few times as like you I get confused with the blocking angles. what I can say is attacking with a lifting action and sidespin against slower balls is quite easy and very dangerous as it can skid and swerve away from the opponents FH


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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2018, 03:08 
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ChasFox wrote:
I have only tried LP a few times as like you I get confused with the blocking angles. what I can say is attacking with a lifting action and sidespin against slower balls is quite easy and very dangerous as it can skid and swerve away from the opponents FH
Yep... Ive been trying this for a while, but with a less that 50% success...



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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2018, 03:09 
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Any video tutorials on how to bump?

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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2018, 03:38 
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Watch Jian Li. he will serve underspin, and when opponents push it he will bump it aggressively.



Depends on your rubber and sponge. If you have too much grip, you will need a slight upward motion to the bump. It's a flat hit. Bogeyhunter will bump on serves as well, he's really good at it.

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