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PostPosted: 29 Aug 2010, 06:07 
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Holey Woods
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Sure. I'll probably have it until Tuesday when my next practice is. I'll give you my impressions then.

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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2010, 06:20 
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I had my first practice session with the D.Tecs 1.2mm tonight, playing about 3 hours. I'll make a short review following the "Rubber Review Proforma".

1. The reviewer: Modern defender, Level 1 player in Sweden, playing with a team in Division 2. Blade used was a Nittaku Vioncello with Tenergy 64 1.9mm on FH.

2. Physical Properties: Black Tibhar Grass D.Tecs with 1.2mm sponge.

3. Speed: After all I've read about the speed of sponged D.Tecs I thought it would be faster than it was. However, this is still the fastest LP I've used, faster than the Curl P1R and Feint Long II. I didn't find this as a problem and when I started to get a little more used to the speed I kinda liked it. If you hit a good chop and brush the ball, you won't notice the speed at all, it's actually a good thing since that allows you to brush the ball even more when the speed helps bringing the ball over the net. It does make it a little bit unforgiving thou, if you hit the ball to "fat" it will shoot like a rocket and it's hard to keep it from flying far too long. You need to have good footwork and technique when using this rubber!

4. Spin: When chopping a loop you can get serious amounts of backspin but you still get less spin on loops with less spin compared to P1R or FL2. I would say that when chopping a high spin loop D.Tecs is better and when chopping a low spin loop P1R is better. At the table you can generate a lot more spin with the 1.2mm version compared to the OX version and I still didn't find it more difficult to return serves.

5. Control: Surprisingly, I didn't feel I had less control with the 1.2mm version compared to the OX version, but I think that is just because I'm more used to sponge LP and my strokes are more adapted to that. I was able to keep the chops A LOT lower when I had the sponge under and this is a big plus since I lost to many points with the OX when I chopped the ball to high and short and my opponent could just smack the ball past me. Obviously, the OX version is better at blocking at the table but it can definitely be done with the 1.2mm version too, and a plus for the sponge was that I was now able to punch-block with the LP like you do with normal inverted! Attacking was also much better with sponge. If you add all this characteristics together, 1.2mm actually suits my game at the table a lot better than the OX. I never stay at the table in an attempt to passively block until my opponent makes a mistake, I'm doing it to attack when I get a higher ball from my opponent.

6. Other Playing properties: Well, I can just mention that the 1.2mm is still very insensitive to spin, not as much as the OX version, but still a lot more than P1R or FL2.

Conclusion: This was just my first practice with the rubber and I didn't really get to play someone at my own level as all my teammates was either sick or away from town but it really felt like I was playing better with 1.2mm compared to the OX, and that at the first training with it. I still have to adapt a lot to be able to use this rubber to the max but the same goes for the OX variant and I just see much more potential with sponge. I felt sometimes when I made a really good chop that I was able to generate some more spin and I will have to practice until I can master this at will, in all situations. The sponge is quite hard and because of that I had to chop quite hard when I wanted to use the sponge to create my own spin, this is something that isn't totally easy because of the speed of this LP. I also find that I can create more spin with it in my FH and that's probably because my chopping technique is a lot better in the FH. I will record some training session when I'm chopping so that I can see what I'm doing wrong and work on fixing it. I've never seen myself on video when I'm chopping, only back when I was a all out attacker.

The plan is to stick to this setup (Vioncello, Tenergy 64 1.9, D.Tecs 1.2) at least until new year and then evaluate it. If I succeed with this it would be the first time I've had the same setup for that long since I was about 15 years (I'm 20 now) and it would be the first time in my life that I stuck to a defensive setup for that long, by far! When I think about it, it's no wonder that my main problem have been consistency when I'm trying new LP's and blades every week (seriously, EVERY week since I became a modern defender again).

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PostPosted: 01 Sep 2010, 07:49 
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Auscar, Nice review! :up:

Very similar experiences. I want to make two points:

1) If you have a less spinnier loop, you can opt to play a no-spin ball right into their body. Because those balls are fast, you can set up your own attack with it if you're not to far from the table or force them to give weaker loop if you're too far from the table.

2) I don't feel that the sponge is hard, more soft-medium (maybe a bit harder than the C&FIII sponge: +-35°). This is probably due to the built-in DTechs effect (whatever that might be) and my blade Joo Se Hyuk. The DTechs is, however, rated as 47,5° (very hard). Strange if you think about it...

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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2010, 05:12 
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Ok, so I had my second practice with the D.Tecs 1.2mm tonight and I can just say that it was a BAD day for me. I had gotten to little sleep last night because of school and my body and focus was just not there. Because of this my footwork and reactions were way off and I did get to experience how unforgiving the D.Tecs can be. My chops were just all over the place. This rubber really requires you to do a full chop motion, and a quite aggressive one too, otherwise the ball won't bite and you loose quite a lot of control. I'm still not sure whether I will be able to control this rubber until the upcoming league games but it felt really good last night and today was just not a fair day to judge anything. I will keep on trying for now.

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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2010, 05:20 
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The DTechs can be very unforgiving, indeed. But it rewards good technique... So in the end it forces you to go for your shot which is good thing.

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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2010, 05:51 
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Yes, I really think I have to give this some time. When I'm getting into good position and perform a good full chop and really brush the ball, it feels great. I can feel that this LP holds very good spin variation possibilities.

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PostPosted: 02 Sep 2010, 17:34 
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I guess most of us have had that experience - the forst time with new material is super, all your drams come true (eh... depending on what your dreams are of course :) ). Next session everything is gone and you think about changing back (and I guess many do that at this point). And then you start to climb the ladder one step at the time. And about 3-5 more training sessions you can make a more consistent evaluation of your new material. Therefore, it is good to have a Masterplan and stick to it (like you Auzcar - no changing before Santa is comming to town). There could however be occasions when you need to skip the masterplan for a new one, but not after that second training session.

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PostPosted: 11 Sep 2010, 08:53 
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Hey Auzcar, any more progress with the sponged dtecs? I've been experimenting with it a bit myself after having used it in OX for about 8 months. I was surprised to find that service reception didn't take as big a hit as I thought it would. Even with sponge it's fairly insensitive to spin: as long as your brushing the ball in some way and not hitting it too "fat" (as you put it) the control seems pretty good. Pushing seems better but i'ts not the best sponged LP at creating backspin against push (Juic Leggy for example excels in that).

Once off the table the sponge definitely does help though. I've actually had a lot of success chopping with dtecs in OX, but occasionally when the ball would come in at a weird angle it would tend to slide off the bat because of the lack of friction and dwell. The 1.2mm sponge allows me to "muscle" those balls back onto the table so to speak :)

So far the pros and cons of using the 1.2mm sponge have seemed to balance each other out and I'm playing at about the same level as when I used OX. Hopefully this will change as I get a little more accustomed to using sponge again (it's been a while...)

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PostPosted: 26 Sep 2010, 23:32 
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I'm back on this bandwagon again after 2yrs with OX. I think that a lot of what's been said is correct and that ultimately there is a reason why top LP players play with sponge. I'm prepared to take a step backwards in terms of immediate results in order to progress in the long term.

In technique terms the serve seems easier to return and with more control provided you don't catch it too 'fat'. Chopping away from the table is as good as with OX, but as someone said earlier, you can now 'muscle' the ball if needed. Attacking is much safer. The down side is less flutter, but at this stage I'll trade that for more control. It's early days but encouraging.

I think that if you're going to attempt to change then you need to have your head on straight and your expectations realistic. One thing that Matthew Syed mentions when he was first coached by Chen was that he dramatically cut down the number of shots/variation he was using. Got him playing 'straight' then gradually reintroduced the variation once Syed has better mastered the technique. It's an interesting approach and one I'm trying to adopt at the moment.

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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2011, 04:03 
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Since I recently changed to D.TecS 1,2 mm I thought I'd give you my impressions as well.

1. The reviewer: I have been playing modern defensive style about 1,5 years. I would rate myself as an intermediate player, lurking around in the lower leauges in Sweden. I have been testing/using about 10 different lp's, but I have most experience from Dawe 388D and Donic Akkadi L1. I am using a Butterfly Joo Se Hyuk blade.

2. Physical Properties: The second you take a look at this rubber and feel it you can tell it is of the very best quality (and it is one of the most expensive lp's). It is shiny black, but after a few hours of hitting and chopping it looks like most other lp's. Pips are ribbed, very tall and wide apart (there are several photos of the topsheet in other threads). They are also among the softest I have ever felt. They feel kind of grippy on the sides, but not as much as Dawei 388D. However, the base sheet feels grippy and since the pips are very soft and wide apart I think that matters on high impact strokes. The sponge is a little harder than I am used to, but not rock hard as the ordinary chineese sponge. It is mild yellow and slightly porous.

3. Speed: This is a very tricky part to descripe. When you activate the sponge on a flat hit, this is a very fast rubber and that can be of great help when you are away from the table. Instead of a normal chop you can use the speed and send away a floating ball that looks like a chop but have a different trajectory and no spin. But close to the table such a stroke will probably make the ball go way too long. If make a slow hit flat, then it is a slow rubber (when you only involve the pips, not the sponge). Finding the speeds in between is very difficult, so you need to avoid flat hits close to the table. On chops this is a lp of normal speed, if you chop straight down and don't activate the sponge. You can chop well close to the table as well, just brushing the ball. But if you are facing a fast loop and making a full chop movement and use the sponge you will get a quite fast and low chop, sailing away with a somewhat different trajectory. This is a very nice way to chop, it works well and it is possible to control it (not like the flat hit). It is also possible to uose the rubber as an odrinary inverted, if you do not hesitate. If you make a lazy os pasive stroke this rubber is about the worst there is. But if you make a proper stroke, chop or normal, it works fine. I think this has to do with the top sheet as well, I mentioned that the base is a little grippy and when the ball is pressing down the pips and getting in contact with the base sheet, that's when you can use it a little like an inverted. As long as you are in position, making proper strokes you will be rewarded with spin and control.

4. Spin: This has a lot to do with the sponge, but only the pips do not have the ability to create much spin on their own (not like Akkadi L1 or P1-r, more like Dawei 388D). To me it is very difficult to push a slow, low, spinless serve and put preassure on my opponent. For this you need ta place the ball and keep it low. If you get a back spin serve you can push with more force and perhaps return with a little backspin. But it might be better to attack/lift the ball. It is also difficult to generate any spin when serving, but I managed to do it a few times (but I do not know exactly how I did it :?: ). Away from the table this is a very tricky rubber - for your opponent. Sometimes you return almost all the spin created by your opponent (on medium slow spinny loops, and a not too powerful chop). If you return a smash or drive wwithout much spin you can chop with ful force and return a no spin ball or with just a slight back spin. But then there are all variations in between when neither you or your opponent really knows how much spin the ball carries. When landing a chop like the first one many of my opponents had serious troubles returning the ball even ehen trying to make a short return or just lifting it back). And when chopping back a fast stroke without much spin, they had troubles not loping too high, since my chop often were very low and fast, but without much back spin.

5. Control: Like said before, as long as you do not hesitate or being lazy, you get quite good control due to that the top sheet is insensive to spin and due to it's soft pips. But if you hesitate you get caught in between of using only the top shet or activating the sponge and then your strokes will just slowly die into the net or sail looong.

6. Other playing properties: This rubber is so much fun to use! If you suddenly doesn't feel like chopping, you can attack from far away like it was an inverted! That look on your opponents face, like "what the f*** was that?" :rock:

To me this is a keeper at least for a few months. Just because it is so much fun. I really don't play better right now, but I have been winning against some I usally loose to, and I have been loosing to some I normally beat :). But I guess this rubber is more difficult to my opponents than it is to me - for the moment at least.

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2011, 06:42 
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Had a very difficult match today against someone a lot better than me. My D.tecS worked very nice against his powerful loops, I only sent the ball far a few times. As long as you chop it isn't that hard to control even against powerful loops. It also worked nice for returning serves, I could surprice him with some very short returns far out on his FH side. The only thing I haven't managed to get used to yet is handle no spin balls or attack with control. I put lots of attacks straight into the net because I wouldn't dare to activate the sponge qand because I am used to a more grippy lp. It takes a few months to re-program my brain to act correct when under preassure. But I will get there. I also played a defender using some ordinary inverted on fh and Kokutaku 911 with thin sponge on bh. He could create some spin on his own and I had troubles finding out the amount of spin. I am not good againt defenders, especially when I cant play aggressive with my bh (I dumped several no spin balls to the net and lifted a lots of no spin balls way too high - easy for him to attack). It is the combination of speed and lack of grip that makes this rubber so wonderful and tricky. And it is very tricky for me at this moment when facing other lp's or people playing with little or no spin. I need to learn how to attack with control - find a way to activate the sponge without sending the ball to the moon. That's what summer practice will be all about.

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2011, 10:03 
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I used the DTechs 1,2mm one year and I didn't have much transition problems. But then again, the previous pip I used was C&F III, which plays quite similar, yet with less poison. Now I'm trying to master the P1-R 1,5mm.. Not the speed is troubling me, but the variations made possible.

Anyway, you can handle a no - spin ball by making a brush loop or if you chop, making a no - spin chop (going fast underneath the ball) or load the ball with backspin (grabbing the ball from behind). If you brush loop it, you can also get some speed inside play. If you want to hit a ball with it, make sure you close your bat (so no hitting with an open faced bat, because the ball will sail long). If you still have any questions, don't hesitate to ask them! ;)

Oh yeah, were you using the old or new version of the Dtechs?

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2011, 21:52 
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Lorre wrote:
I used the DTechs 1,2mm one year and I didn't have much transition problems. But then again, the previous pip I used was C&F III, which plays quite similar, yet with less poison. Now I'm trying to master the P1-R 1,5mm.. Not the speed is troubling me, but the variations made possible.

Anyway, you can handle a no - spin ball by making a brush loop or if you chop, making a no - spin chop (going fast underneath the ball) or load the ball with backspin (grabbing the ball from behind). If you brush loop it, you can also get some speed inside play. If you want to hit a ball with it, make sure you close your bat (so no hitting with an open faced bat, because the ball will sail long). If you still have any questions, don't hesitate to ask them! ;)

Oh yeah, were you using the old or new version of the Dtechs?


Doesn't the discussion about new and old only applies to ox version??? I bought it in october I think, should be the old version.
My transition problems is mostly due to the lack of grip on attacks, with Akkadi L1 I could almost loop as with inverted. For doing that with Dtecs I need to use more force and than there is a big risk of missing tha table. But I think I ned an hour or two with the robot to fix this.
I tried to close the bat but I closed it too much. I need to open it a little but still brush when attacking. With L1 it is the opposite, hit with a little closed bat but not that much brushing (stiff wrist).
I do have more qustions :) :
"grabbing the ball from behind :oops: ???" Just kidding :D
How did you do when blocking close to the table? Normal block or with a little chopping movement?
When returning no spin, short and low serves - did you use the lp or twiddle? I see Joo is using the same strategy as with Curl P1-r, but he doesn't get as much spin. But he seems to be ok with that. The benefits from dtecs is the speed and difficulties for opponents to read the spin.
Did you find a way to generate spin on wour own with DtecS? I have managed to do it a few times on my bh-serve, but I don't know exactly how :?: . I think the sponge was used in some way.
Why did you change to Curl?
I will probably have more questions later. And if I get my opponents permission I will out out the clip from my match yesterday on the video section (forum members part). I had some really nice rallys and some very embarrasing misses with my lp :oops: .

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2011, 22:41 
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More about D.TecS here viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15534

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2011, 09:11 
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Def-attack wrote:
"grabbing the ball from behind :oops: ???" Just kidding :D


:rofl: I couldn't find better words when I wrote that. :rofl: Brushing the back of the ball is better, isn't it? :party:

Def-attack wrote:
Doesn't the discussion about new and old only applies to ox version??? I bought it in october I think, should be the old version.
My transition problems is mostly due to the lack of grip on attacks, with Akkadi L1 I could almost loop as with inverted. For doing that with Dtecs I need to use more force and than there is a big risk of missing tha table. But I think I ned an hour or two with the robot to fix this.
I tried to close the bat but I closed it too much. I need to open it a little but still brush when attacking. With L1 it is the opposite, hit with a little closed bat but not that much brushing (stiff wrist).
I do have more qustions :) :
"grabbing the ball from behind :oops: ???" Just kidding :D
How did you do when blocking close to the table? Normal block or with a little chopping movement?
When returning no spin, short and low serves - did you use the lp or twiddle? I see Joo is using the same strategy as with Curl P1-r, but he doesn't get as much spin. But he seems to be ok with that. The benefits from dtecs is the speed and difficulties for opponents to read the spin.
Did you find a way to generate spin on wour own with DtecS? I have managed to do it a few times on my bh-serve, but I don't know exactly how :?: . I think the sponge was used in some way.
Why did you change to Curl?
I will probably have more questions later. And if I get my opponents permission I will out out the clip from my match yesterday on the video section (forum members part). I had some really nice rallys and some very embarrasing misses with my lp :oops: .


Well, they changed the pip height, so I assume it also applies to the DTechs with sponge. Due to this change and also because I wanted to manipulate the spin more, I changed to the P1-R 1,5mm. I don't regret it.

Well, I always make a difference between three types of block: active block (going forward when blocking), passive blocking (just holding your padde out there) and chop block. A passive block is only possible when the topspin isn't too high. Otherwise you need to use an active or chop block. Lots of wrist is necessary because of the great speed of the Dtechs. When using an active block, you also need to close your paddle (like with an inverted).

When they played such serves to my pips, I (1) brush over them or (2) make the ball float by chopping. I always try to aim deep into their backhand. Off course, occasionally I play these shots to their forehand. I never twiddle (although I want to learn it with some shots).

Yes, I managed to create some spin with it. When you serve, you need to feel the ball getting into the pips and the sponge. This means the pips need to bend and you need to hold the ball a fraction of a second. Then you can create spin with it. Off course, not like with an inverted.

I watched your video. You're not bad chopper, really. :) Your techniques is really good. You only need to brush the ball more. That needs touch and touch needs a lot of exercise. I played like you +- 2 years ago. The Dtechs was a great rubber to learn how to play a rewarding modern defense game. Oh yeah, like you already posted it in your other topic, your made a lot of mistakes. Once you'll make a lot less mistakes, you'll beat this opponent in no time. ;)

The chopping faults you made are caused by not brushing the ball enough or by not finishing your chopping movement. Look at 3min20 - 4min00. You did some really good chops there and some real bad ones too. Repeat those chops in practice and you'll get there.

The balls you tried to hit with your pips all contained a little topspin, but the way you tried to hit them was like you tried to hit a backspin ball. To hit those balls, twiddle or hit them with your forehand. If you still want to hit them with your pips, you have two options: (1) counter the topspin on the ball by brushing the ball and going upwards or (2) hit them by really closing your paddle and going foreward. The first will create a slow ball with a little topspin on it. The second option will create a flat and fast no-spin ball. The second option is the hardest, but the most rewarding.

I also noticed you always served the same way. We only get good at our style when we vary as much as possible. Learning a forehand serve and some other serves would make your game a lot better. If I'm not wrong, you wrote in the other topic the serve you used was effective against this opponent. That might be true, but always serving like that will make it predictable. Variation is the key.

Hope this helps!!! :)

Lorre

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