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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 21:58 
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How often do you change yours PB, annually or No. of hours played approx?[/quote]

I change it when I lose more than 2 pips on it.. Usually a sheet lasts me 2 - 4 years.. I just lost my oldest sheet which I have been playing since 2012... 5 years.. Not sure how many hours.. I played at least 30 tournaments with that one..[/quote]

Great answer, I was hoping for, lol, same as me, but tbh, I don’t think I’ve ever lost a pip, perhaps I need a magnifying glass!?

I have just found the Crop circles black to be the perfect fit for the JTHWS, after struggling for consistency and more important, control, after years of only using red, i now need to try the Talon black on the 2nd JTHWS, to see if it attacks as well!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 28 Dec 2017, 22:21 
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Robot Blocker wrote:
How often do you change yours PB, annually or No. of hours played approx?


I change it when I lose more than 2 pips on it.. Usually a sheet lasts me 2 - 4 years.. I just lost my oldest sheet which I have been playing since 2012... 5 years.. Not sure how many hours.. I played at least 30 tournaments with that one..[/quote]

Great answer, I was hoping for, lol, same as me, but tbh, I don’t think I’ve ever lost a pip, perhaps I need a magnifying glass!?

I have just found the Crop circles black to be the perfect fit for the JTHWS, after struggling for consistency and more important, control, after years of only using red, i now need to try the Talon black on the 2nd JTHWS, to see if it attacks as well!!![/quote]
Talon gets better with age.. The friction disappears after a while, especially if you include some outdoor tt activity..

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 08:02 
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PB wrote:
Quote:
Talon gets better with age.. The friction disappears after a while, especially if you include some outdoor tt activity..


I know that the minimum friction rule for pimples out rubber is a load of the proverbial, and there is no objective measure for that minimum friction except perhaps at ITTF run tournaments and that reasonable wear and tear is very subjective but ... if I was an umpire for one of your matches at a tournament (and remember that I am an accredited umpire), I would be tempted to report your bat to the referee on the strength of your comments here.

True story - there was an older guy here in Oz who used long pimples that he reputedly left on the parcel shelf of his car in the sun. "Oh dear I left it there after a session and forgot it was there" was his justification. Of course he happened to leave it there for weeks without putting it in its case. It did peculiar things to the ball, but not consistently. Before my time at tournaments. He was banned from local tournaments (and I assume higher ones as well) on the strength that he was treating his rubber. For those who may remember, he usually wore a nautical captain's style hat to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 08:14 
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Retriever wrote:
PB wrote:
Quote:
Talon gets better with age.. The friction disappears after a while, especially if you include some outdoor tt activity..


I know that the minimum friction rule for pimples out rubber is a load of the proverbial, and there is no objective measure for that minimum friction except perhaps at ITTF run tournaments and that reasonable wear and tear is very subjective but ... if I was an umpire for one of your matches at a tournament (and remember that I am an accredited umpire), I would be tempted to report your bat to the referee on the strength of your comments here.

True story - there was an older guy here in Oz who used long pimples that he reputedly left on the parcel shelf of his car in the sun. "Oh dear I left it there after a session and forgot it was there" was his justification. Of course he happened to leave it there for weeks without putting it in its case. It did peculiar things to the ball, but not consistently. Before my time at tournaments. He was banned from local tournaments (and I assume higher ones as well) on the strength that he was treating his rubber. For those who may remember, he usually wore a nautical captain's style hat to play.


Wow, prosecutor, judge and jury and for what exactly?

Has PB just broken some law or something?

Did you not know outdoor tt is being heavily promoted now, or is it only allowed in the rain in Oz? :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 11:54 
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True story: playing a guy in a tournament with OX LP on his BH, and his rubber color looks quite a bit deeper shade of red than I'm used to. Pips seem to be bigger and softer as well (I have a sheet of Dtecs on another blade, so I'm somewhat familiar with it). Needless to say, balls are weird as hell. Asked him about it - 'oh, I got it from a friend'. Yeah, sure...

So, some funny business might be out there, and there is a bit of a line between 'my rubber got old and lost some friction' and 'it happened to spend some time out in the sun/under UV lamp/in the microwave/glue was spilled on it'.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 12:27 
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dony71 wrote:
anybody know where to buy dragon talon in US ?
i email ztabletennis ([email protected]) but bounce back


try tabletennisonly.com

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 17:30 
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PB wrote:
Quote:
Talon gets better with age.. The friction disappears after a while, especially if you include some outdoor tt activity..


Retriever wrote:
Quote:
I know that the minimum friction rule for pimples out rubber is a load of the proverbial, and there is no objective measure for that minimum friction except perhaps at ITTF run tournaments and that reasonable wear and tear is very subjective but ... if I was an umpire for one of your matches at a tournament (and remember that I am an accredited umpire), I would be tempted to report your bat to the referee on the strength of your comments here.

True story - there was an older guy here in Oz who used long pimples that he reputedly left on the parcel shelf of his car in the sun. "Oh dear I left it there after a session and forgot it was there" was his justification. Of course he happened to leave it there for weeks without putting it in its case. It did peculiar things to the ball, but not consistently. Before my time at tournaments. He was banned from local tournaments (and I assume higher ones as well) on the strength that he was treating his rubber. For those who may remember, he usually wore a nautical captain's style hat to play.


Robot Blocker wrote:
Quote:
Wow, prosecutor, judge and jury and for what exactly?

Has PB just broken some law or something?

Did you not know outdoor tt is being heavily promoted now, or is it only allowed in the rain in Oz? :lol: :lol:


No, only prosecutor, I would leave the judging to the referee as that is his/her job.

Whether the referee would do anything is a whole other question.

Anyway, if you want players boosting their own rubbers brought to task or illegal servers faulted, or any other rule enforced, you have to live with other such practices being cracked down on.

My opinion, and I do stress that it is my opinion, is that what PB claims to do is morally wrong, veneered by such grey justifications as "outdoor TT activity".

I don't know too many serious table tennis players who play outdoors. At the opening of an outdoor table at a local beach a couple of years ago, an older lady had a hit with a then state player and was getting the better of the play. He couldn't handle the breeze/wind. I myself have played outdoors a few years ago - the table was set up on a slope in the main place or plaza of the city and was more or less OK until the wind arose - that was as a promotional activity for a non-TT cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 22:03 
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Retriever wrote:
PB wrote:
Quote:
Talon gets better with age.. The friction disappears after a while, especially if you include some outdoor tt activity..


I know that the minimum friction rule for pimples out rubber is a load of the proverbial, and there is no objective measure for that minimum friction except perhaps at ITTF run tournaments and that reasonable wear and tear is very subjective but ... if I was an umpire for one of your matches at a tournament (and remember that I am an accredited umpire), I would be tempted to report your bat to the referee on the strength of your comments here.

True story - there was an older guy here in Oz who used long pimples that he reputedly left on the parcel shelf of his car in the sun. "Oh dear I left it there after a session and forgot it was there" was his justification. Of course he happened to leave it there for weeks without putting it in its case. It did peculiar things to the ball, but not consistently. Before my time at tournaments. He was banned from local tournaments (and I assume higher ones as well) on the strength that he was treating his rubber. For those who may remember, he usually wore a nautical captain's style hat to play.


Interestingly, there really is no minimum friction rule for use in a tournament.. It's not anywhere in the rules. There is a REGULATION that requires the rubbers to have a certain amount of friction when they are manufactured/sold by stores.
The only rule is that a rubber may not be modified or treated. There is NO RULE that a rubber may not use friction due to use. While leaving it in your cars windshield would be considered treating, playing outdoors table tennis is definitely USE.

Here are the actual rules:
Quote:
2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.


What that says is that a rubber may not be treated.


Quote:
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


So, if there are no deviations in color or continuity of the surface, this rule does not even apply.. So, if the rubber is equally worn and equally lost friction due to use, this rule does not apply..

Nowhere in the rules does it state that a rubber can't lose friction if it is not treated. ALL rubbers lose friction due to use and age, not just long pips. Nothing in the rules declared a rubber illegal if it has lost most of it's friction. There also is NO requirement that long pips have to remain above the friction requirement that has to be met when the rubber is produced.
ITTF would have to pass a rule change AND a way to measure friction if they would require a certain amount of friction when the rubber is used in events.

Having friends who are/were international pros, I can assure you that 90% of all world class players illegally modify their rubbers, mostly inverted players but they do it in a very sophisticated way that they usually don't get caught.. Occasionally some of them get caught with a rubber slightly above 4.0 mm.. The oils/products they use are not detectable by the ITTF equipment and the only way to realize that something is wrong is because occasionally after treatment, the rubber is above 4.0 mm...

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 23:07 
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Quote:
My opinion, and I do stress that it is my opinion, is that what PB claims to do is morally wrong, veneered by such grey justifications as "outdoor TT activity".


You're entitled to your opinion for sure, and I get where you are coming from. I have a different take which tends to be a bit soapboxy, so I apologize in advanced.

I dislike the word "morally" with regards to TT rules. My take is, if something cannot be regulated consistently either because it's not technically possible to determine the infraction or because there are no adequate resources to monitor for infractions, then the rule should not exist. Which, as shown by PB, such a rule does not exist.

If anything I find it more "morally" egregious to put in rules without the possibility of adequate regulation, because it places rule adherers at a disadvantage to rule breakers. Laws and rules do not determine morality, they determine policy, based on lots of factors which may or may not include a moral element. Besides, morality is a relative thing. For example, it's legal to buy, distribute and smoke marijuana in some states in the US, like Colorado. It is illegal in other states, like Virginia. Does the marijuana user go from a moral person to an immoral one when they enter Virginia? No.

Take pips out of the equation, a friend of mine here boosts inverted rubbers all over the place, and all of his students and teammates are welcome to share in his boosting activities. He even offers it as a service for a fee on his website. Why? Because the rules are BS, many people do it, and everyone knows it.
Look at the last item on the list: http://www.smashtt.com/membership/

Now, if bat doping was always (even mostly) detectable, and the resources were always (even usually) available...that's a different story. Then the rules make sense to ensure an level playing field. But instead the rules, as they are, are actually CREATING an unlevelled playing field...and that's what's truly immoral.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 29 Dec 2017, 23:25 
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Japsican wrote:
Quote:
My opinion, and I do stress that it is my opinion, is that what PB claims to do is morally wrong, veneered by such grey justifications as "outdoor TT activity".


You're entitled to your opinion for sure, and I get where you are coming from. I have a different take which tends to be a bit soapboxy, so I apologize in advanced.

I dislike the word "morally" with regards to TT rules. My take is, if something cannot be regulated consistently either because it's not technically possible to determine the infraction or because there are no adequate resources to monitor for infractions, then the rule should not exist. Which, as shown by PB, such a rule does not exist.

If anything I find it more "morally" egregious to put in rules without the possibility of adequate regulation, because it places rule adherers at a disadvantage to rule breakers. Laws and rules do not determine morality, they determine policy, based on lots of factors which may or may not include a moral element. Besides, morality is a relative thing. For example, it's legal to buy, distribute and smoke marijuana in some states in the US, like Colorado. It is illegal in other states, like Virginia. Does the marijuana user go from a moral person to an immoral one when they enter Virginia? No.

Take pips out of the equation, a friend of mine here boosts inverted rubbers all over the place, and all of his students and teammates are welcome to share in his boosting activities. He even offers it as a service for a fee on his website. Why? Because the rules are BS, many people do it, and everyone knows it.
Look at the last item on the list: http://www.smashtt.com/membership/

Now, if bat doping was always (even mostly) detectable, and the resources were always (even usually) available...that's a different story. Then the rules make sense to ensure an level playing field. But instead the rules, as they are, are actually CREATING an unlevelled playing field...and that's what's truly immoral.


This particular dead horse has been flogged into oblivion on every TT forum, so I don't expect to change anyone's opinion's here. I'll just say that I don't find arguments like 'everyone is doing it', 'it is OK if you are not caught', and "this rule is BS' particularly convincing.

P.S. Virginia probably does not give a crap what I've done in Colorado (just like it does not care that Montana has no speed limit, more or less), because jurisdiction and all, so I don't follow this specific example. But it's your call what to do about complying with their rules while in VA.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 00:27 
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pgpg wrote:

This particular dead horse has been flogged into oblivion on every TT forum, so I don't expect to change anyone's opinion's here. I'll just say that I don't find arguments like 'everyone is doing it', 'it is OK if you are not caught', and "this rule is BS' particularly convincing.

P.S. Virginia probably does not give a crap what I've done in Colorado (just like it does not care that Montana has no speed limit, more or less), because jurisdiction and all, so I don't follow this specific example. But it's your call what to do about complying with their rules while in VA.

Agreed about it being flogged into oblivion, however my comment is more about the use of the word "Morality" and it is with that word that I take exception.

People are subject to the laws of VA, that is not at debate. Whether those laws should be in place, is subject to debate. One does not suddenly become "immoral" if they use marijuana in VA. Side note and huge digression - we all know why people can't have pot in VA, and it has everything to do with money and big tobacco, cancer patients and chronic pain sufferers be damned. Literally across the Potomac River in DC, I sometimes administered medical marijuana to my patients, with huge success, which resulted in less pain and reduced opiate consumption. The difference is a 3000 feet of water, and people who travel across the Potomac are no more or less moral than people on the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 00:53 
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pgpg wrote:
P.S. Virginia probably does not give a crap what I've done in Colorado (just like it does not care that Montana has no speed limit, more or less), because jurisdiction and all, so I don't follow this specific example. But it's your call what to do about complying with their rules while in VA.

Follow up question...if a Montanan (is that what they are called) speeds in Virginia, are they being "immoral?"

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 01:10 
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Japsican wrote:
pgpg wrote:
P.S. Virginia probably does not give a crap what I've done in Colorado (just like it does not care that Montana has no speed limit, more or less), because jurisdiction and all, so I don't follow this specific example. But it's your call what to do about complying with their rules while in VA.

Follow up question...if a Montanan (is that what they are called) speeds in Virginia, are they being "immoral?"


If 'breaking the law' is equivalent to 'being immoral' (pretty sure one can have long discussion about THAT), then yes, doing 90 in 55 zone while in VA qualifies. Don't think it matters that it's legal in your state, you are not there. To make it incomprehensible for non-US folks: when National League club plays at American League ballpark, designated hitter rule is in effect, and vice versa. People seem to be OK with that...

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 04:00 
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Japsican wrote:
pgpg wrote:

This particular dead horse has been flogged into oblivion on every TT forum, so I don't expect to change anyone's opinion's here. I'll just say that I don't find arguments like 'everyone is doing it', 'it is OK if you are not caught', and "this rule is BS' particularly convincing.

P.S. Virginia probably does not give a crap what I've done in Colorado (just like it does not care that Montana has no speed limit, more or less), because jurisdiction and all, so I don't follow this specific example. But it's your call what to do about complying with their rules while in VA.

Agreed about it being flogged into oblivion, however my comment is more about the use of the word "Morality" and it is with that word that I take exception.

People are subject to the laws of VA, that is not at debate. Whether those laws should be in place, is subject to debate. One does not suddenly become "immoral" if they use marijuana in VA. Side note and huge digression - we all know why people can't have pot in VA, and it has everything to do with money and big tobacco, cancer patients and chronic pain sufferers be damned. Literally across the Potomac River in DC, I sometimes administered medical marijuana to my patients, with huge success, which resulted in less pain and reduced opiate consumption. The difference is a 3000 feet of water, and people who travel across the Potomac are no more or less moral than people on the other.


I think that playing outdoors TT and as a consequence, the rubber starts playing better, it is well within the wording of the rules. If it is immoral to do so, then it would be immoral to hire a tax lawyer or accountant to get every possible legal deduction from your income to pay the least possible taxes.. I don't see why using the laws or rules as written in your favor would be immoral..
Boosting on the other hand is clearly against the rules unless it is done by the factory.. and yet, many or most high rated and world class players do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 05:30 
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Pushblocker wrote:
I don't see why using the laws or rules as written in your favor would be immoral..


This is ESPECIALLY the case where, as here, the rule in question is silly, unjust and the product of corruption at the ITTF. In such a case, I'd say it's virtually a DUTY to everything you can, within the rules, to frustrate their purpose and expose their absurdity.

Just as Pushblocker is suggesting, I regularly play against inverted players using illegally boosted rubbers. Many of them will be totally up front about this (when you're not playing them in a sanctioned tournament), and others will admit it if asked. It is not in any way "immoral" to do something totally WITHIN the rules to counter their unfair and illegal advantage.

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