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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 06:46 
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Ok about morality. If PB plays outdoor TT with his Giant Dragon Talon with the specific intent of reducing its friction then I would say that that is a moral question that probably only PB can answer, and it is up to him whether he is comfortable with that answer. We are all different in that regard. However from his comments it is not hard to connect the dots ...

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 09:20 
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pgpg wrote:
Japsican wrote:
pgpg wrote:
P.S. Virginia probably does not give a crap what I've done in Colorado (just like it does not care that Montana has no speed limit, more or less), because jurisdiction and all, so I don't follow this specific example. But it's your call what to do about complying with their rules while in VA.

Follow up question...if a Montanan (is that what they are called) speeds in Virginia, are they being "immoral?"


If 'breaking the law' is equivalent to 'being immoral' (pretty sure one can have long discussion about THAT), then yes, doing 90 in 55 zone while in VA qualifies. Don't think it matters that it's legal in your state, you are not there. To make it incomprehensible for non-US folks: when National League club plays at American League ballpark, designated hitter rule is in effect, and vice versa. People seem to be OK with that...

My point is entirely that “breaking a law” is not the equivalent to “being immoral.” Morality is a relative cultural construct, not a rule. Sometimes rules are based on morality, sometimes they are not.

Another example. In some countries, by law, women are not allowed to get an education, show their face in public, or work. If you and your wife were to move to this country, would she suddenly be “immoral” if she decided she wanted to take a class? Show her face? Work? Just like many feel about VA’s marijuana laws, most westerners would find the law itself to be immoral. But again, all of that is relative.

The answer is no, she would not suddenly become immoral. But she WOULD be subject to the laws of the land, and their associated consequences... and hopefully that doesn’t include stoning.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 09:29 
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Japsican wrote:
Take pips out of the equation, a friend of mine here boosts inverted rubbers all over the place, and all of his students and teammates are welcome to share in his boosting activities. He even offers it as a service for a fee on his website. Why? Because the rules are BS, many people do it, and everyone knows it.
Look at the last item on the list: http://www.smashtt.com/membership/

Now, if bat doping was always (even mostly) detectable, and the resources were always (even usually) available...that's a different story. Then the rules make sense to ensure an level playing field. But instead the rules, as they are, are actually CREATING an unlevelled playing field...and that's what's truly immoral.


Yes I think we'd all agree that the rules should either be modified or enforced and since the latter is impossible at all levels the former is preferable. As you say, boosting is widely acknowledged and usually called for what it is which may eventually encourage the rule makers to undertake modifications. If baking LP's is widespread practice, I wonder why it's not equally and openly acknowledged. I hear about it occasionally and when I do it's usually hidden behind euphemisms.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 18:28 
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Japsican wrote:
Quote:
My opinion, and I do stress that it is my opinion, is that what PB claims to do is morally wrong, veneered by such grey justifications as "outdoor TT activity".


You're entitled to your opinion for sure, and I get where you are coming from. I have a different take which tends to be a bit soapboxy, so I apologize in advanced.

I dislike the word "morally" with regards to TT rules. My take is, if something cannot be regulated consistently either because it's not technically possible to determine the infraction or because there are no adequate resources to monitor for infractions, then the rule should not exist. Which, as shown by PB, such a rule does not exist.

If anything I find it more "morally" egregious to put in rules without the possibility of adequate regulation, because it places rule adherers at a disadvantage to rule breakers. Laws and rules do not determine morality, they determine policy, based on lots of factors which may or may not include a moral element. Besides, morality is a relative thing. For example, it's legal to buy, distribute and smoke marijuana in some states in the US, like Colorado. It is illegal in other states, like Virginia. Does the marijuana user go from a moral person to an immoral one when they enter Virginia? No.

Take pips out of the equation, a friend of mine here boosts inverted rubbers all over the place, and all of his students and teammates are welcome to share in his boosting activities. He even offers it as a service for a fee on his website. Why? Because the rules are BS, many people do it, and everyone knows it.
Look at the last item on the list: http://www.smashtt.com/membership/

Now, if bat doping was always (even mostly) detectable, and the resources were always (even usually) available...that's a different story. Then the rules make sense to ensure an level playing field. But instead the rules, as they are, are actually CREATING an unlevelled playing field...and that's what's truly immoral.


You can avoid the word "morally" if it makes you feel better but deliberately altering the surface of a racket to use in any authorised competition is cheating. The fact that resources aren't always available to detect cheating shouldn't mean that it should be open house to cheat but rather that participants should not place themselves in a position of cheating in the first place. It's actually not hard to do that.

And your example of moral equivalence would only be valid if it were legal to tamper with rubbers in one State but not another. IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 23:23 
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I played a pretty well known dude with very high ratings who played with the 20-year-old Sriver that had absolutely no spin left in it. So freaking what??? I'm not even sure he's done it on purpose. I play most of the time with Dornenglanz so I have to change it once a month or so. However, if I played with Talon and it stayed in one piece for five years and become dusty and frictionless in the process, why would I have a moral issue with this???


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 00:52 
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nachalnik wrote:
I played a pretty well known dude with very high ratings who played with the 20-year-old Sriver that had absolutely no spin left in it. So freaking what??? I'm not even sure he's done it on purpose. I play most of the time with Dornenglanz so I have to change it once a month or so. However, if I played with Talon and it stayed in one piece for five years and become dusty and frictionless in the process, why would I have a moral issue with this???


You would only have a moral issue if you played a competitive match knowingly in breach of rule 2.4.7.1 which says "Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface."

I don't think it's very difficult to understand what this means and I suspect that people who claim otherwise are being disingenous or deliberately obtuse. The same could be said for the well known dude that you played with the 20 year old Sriver (although I'd have thought anyone playing at a high level with 20 year old Sriver would get battered but that's by the by).

I suppose it's not for any of us to tell other players how to set their moral compass but I can't see that avoiding responsibility by passing the blame onto the rules and thus becoming part of the problem is the answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 02:45 
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Retriever wrote:
Ok about morality. If PB plays outdoor TT with his Giant Dragon Talon with the specific intent of reducing its friction then I would say that that is a moral question that probably only PB can answer, and it is up to him whether he is comfortable with that answer. We are all different in that regard. However from his comments it is not hard to connect the dots ...

Well, playing outdoors TT is how I discovered the effect of playing outdoors in the sun affects the rubber... so, as I liked that effect, I decided to use all my pips for outdoors tt.. It is for me like discovering a legal tax loophole that allows me to pay less taxes without breaking any laws.. Of course I will use that tax loophole just like I will use the effects of outdoor tt in my favor..

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 02:52 
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mikea wrote:
nachalnik wrote:
I played a pretty well known dude with very high ratings who played with the 20-year-old Sriver that had absolutely no spin left in it. So freaking what??? I'm not even sure he's done it on purpose. I play most of the time with Dornenglanz so I have to change it once a month or so. However, if I played with Talon and it stayed in one piece for five years and become dusty and frictionless in the process, why would I have a moral issue with this???


You would only have a moral issue if you played a competitive match knowingly in breach of rule 2.4.7.1 which says "Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface."

I don't think it's very difficult to understand what this means and I suspect that people who claim otherwise are being disingenous or deliberately obtuse. The same could be said for the well known dude that you played with the 20 year old Sriver (although I'd have thought anyone playing at a high level with 20 year old Sriver would get battered but that's by the by).

I suppose it's not for any of us to tell other players how to set their moral compass but I can't see that avoiding responsibility by passing the blame onto the rules and thus becoming part of the problem is the answer.

Richard DeWitt used to play a 10 year old Mark V which was like anti. People have complained to referees and they allowed it as the rubber was still uniform. Of course, once the rubber has inconsistant friction or has damage making the playing surface inconsistant, the rubber can be disallowed. The rule in question only comes into play if the rubber is no longer uniform.

A 10 year old frictionless Sriver is 100% legal as long as it is iniform.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 03:05 
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Pushblocker wrote:
mikea wrote:
nachalnik wrote:
I played a pretty well known dude with very high ratings who played with the 20-year-old Sriver that had absolutely no spin left in it. So freaking what??? I'm not even sure he's done it on purpose. I play most of the time with Dornenglanz so I have to change it once a month or so. However, if I played with Talon and it stayed in one piece for five years and become dusty and frictionless in the process, why would I have a moral issue with this???


You would only have a moral issue if you played a competitive match knowingly in breach of rule 2.4.7.1 which says "Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface."

I don't think it's very difficult to understand what this means and I suspect that people who claim otherwise are being disingenous or deliberately obtuse. The same could be said for the well known dude that you played with the 20 year old Sriver (although I'd have thought anyone playing at a high level with 20 year old Sriver would get battered but that's by the by).

I suppose it's not for any of us to tell other players how to set their moral compass but I can't see that avoiding responsibility by passing the blame onto the rules and thus becoming part of the problem is the answer.

Richard DeWitt used to play a 10 year old Mark V which was like anti. People have complained to referees and they allowed it as the rubber was still uniform. Of course, once the rubber has inconsistant friction or has damage making the playing surface inconsistant, the rubber can be disallowed. The rule in question only comes into play if the rubber is no longer uniform.

A 10 year old frictionless Sriver is 100% legal as long as it is iniform.


With respect you are not quoting the rule correctly. The word "uniform" is only mentioned in the rule with regard to colour change (see above). So you are not correct to say that the rule only comes into play "if the rubber is no longer uniform" because if the characteristics of the surface are changed significantly the covering is illegal - as the rule clearly states.

Pushblocker wrote:
Retriever wrote:
Ok about morality. If PB plays outdoor TT with his Giant Dragon Talon with the specific intent of reducing its friction then I would say that that is a moral question that probably only PB can answer, and it is up to him whether he is comfortable with that answer. We are all different in that regard. However from his comments it is not hard to connect the dots ...

Well, playing outdoors TT is how I discovered the effect of playing outdoors in the sun affects the rubber... so, as I liked that effect, I decided to use all my pips for outdoors tt.. It is for me like discovering a legal tax loophole that allows me to pay less taxes without breaking any laws.. Of course I will use that tax loophole just like I will use the effects of outdoor tt in my favor..


I'd be interested to know what the sun does to the rubber to give it an effect that you like without the characteristics of the playing surface being altered? (i.e. the only way the loophole can be legal)


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 07:30 
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mikea wrote:
With respect you are not quoting the rule correctly. The word "uniform" is only mentioned in the rule with regard to colour change (see above). So you are not correct to say that the rule only comes into play "if the rubber is no longer uniform" because if the characteristics of the surface are changed significantly the covering is illegal - as the rule clearly states.


Let's try this again.. Here is the exact wording of the rule:

Quote:
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to??

So, if this was written as a computer program, it would be like this:

IF DEVIATION DUE TO DAMAGE THEN
---IF DAMAGE CHANGES CHARACTERISTICS THEN
------ILLEGAL
---ELSE
------MAY BE ALLOWED
---END IF
ELSE
---LEGAL
END-IF

The other rule:

Quote:
2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.


Clearly, outdoor table tennis is legal and promoted by the ITTF, so it is considered use, not treatment.



Quote:
I'd be interested to know what the sun does to the rubber to give it an effect that you like without the characteristics of the playing surface being altered? (i.e. the only way the loophole can be legal)


The sun hardens the rubber and harder rubber has less grip.. It's really that simple.. Hard rubber acts more like plastic than rubber.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 07:49 
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If I had a rubber which had been left in the sun, or something had happened to it to change its playing characteristics, such that it was different from its behaviour and specification as designed and approved, I would change rubber.

I've changed FH rubber (just a like-for-like replacement) when I accidentally spilled some glue on it; I've also changed BH rubber when I accidentally spilled some oil from some food I was eating onto the rubber which was on my desk.

I've been offered treated rubbers - I wouldn't consider using them.

I've even changed from 651 (without logo, slightly different pimple arrangement) to 651 (with logo), because I wasn't 100% certain that the earlier 651 was in the LARC, and I didn't have one to hand.

Plain and simple: I want at all times to be beyond reproach, and take the principle that I would prefer to change rubber, or not play, than to play with a covering that could, by any reasonable person, be considered to be in breach of the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 08:45 
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LordCope wrote:
If I had a rubber which had been left in the sun, or something had happened to it to change its playing characteristics, such that it was different from its behaviour and specification as designed and approved, I would change rubber.

I've changed FH rubber (just a like-for-like replacement) when I accidentally spilled some glue on it; I've also changed BH rubber when I accidentally spilled some oil from some food I was eating onto the rubber which was on my desk.

I've been offered treated rubbers - I wouldn't consider using them.

I've even changed from 651 (without logo, slightly different pimple arrangement) to 651 (with logo), because I wasn't 100% certain that the earlier 651 was in the LARC, and I didn't have one to hand.

Plain and simple: I want at all times to be beyond reproach, and take the principle that I would prefer to change rubber, or not play, than to play with a covering that could, by any reasonable person, be considered to be in breach of the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law.

Leaving it in the sun could be considered treating. Playing tt outdoors is use and outdoors tt is even promoted by ITTF..

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 08:49 
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Pushblocker wrote:
Leaving it in the sun could be considered treating. Playing tt outdoors is use and outdoors tt is even promoted by ITTF..


Sure. I think if I'd discovered that playing outdoors with a rubber made it nearly frictionless, I'd probably accept that that's a side-effect of playing outdoors, and since there this isn't really serious play, I might keep one setup for playing outside, and have another for playing inside. I can see that some might consider that overkill, but that's how I think about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 08:52 
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LordCope wrote:
Pushblocker wrote:
Leaving it in the sun could be considered treating. Playing tt outdoors is use and outdoors tt is even promoted by ITTF..


Sure. I think if I'd discovered that playing outdoors with a rubber made it nearly frictionless, I'd probably accept that that's a side-effect of playing outdoors, and since there this isn't really serious play, I might keep one setup for playing outside, and have another for playing inside. I can see that some might consider that overkill, but that's how I think about it.

I like the effects of outdoors tt to my rubber.
It is not against the rules to use a rubber in tournaments that was also used for outdoor table tennis as long as it is still uniform.
Therefore, I use such rubber..

Sure, it there was a rule that a rubber may not lose x percent of it's friction or if they require a minimum friction when a rubber is used in a tournament and they have a device that accurately measures that friction, I would stop using such rubber if it measures below the minimum required friction. Right now, there is no rule requiring a rubber to retain a certain amount of friction when used in a tournament if it is untreated.

There is a difference between requirements for authotization outlined in regulations, like minimum friction and rules.
Regulations are changed by the board of directors while the general assembly decides rule changes. The BoD can pass any regulations they want but none of the properties required for authotization must be retained by any rubber unless the general assembly passes a rule that requires a rubber to have certain properties when used in a sanctioned event. The BoD has tried to shove things down everyone's throat but without matching rules, properties may change due to use if a rubber is untreated..

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 18:01 
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Pushblocker wrote:
mikea wrote:
With respect you are not quoting the rule correctly. The word "uniform" is only mentioned in the rule with regard to colour change (see above). So you are not correct to say that the rule only comes into play "if the rubber is no longer uniform" because if the characteristics of the surface are changed significantly the covering is illegal - as the rule clearly states.


Let's try this again.. Here is the exact wording of the rule:

Quote:
2.04.07.01 Slight deviations from continuity of surface or uniformity of colour due to accidental damage or wear may be allowed provided that they do not significantly change the characteristics of the surface.


The word "they" clearly refers to deviations of continuity..Therefore, the 2nd part of the phrase only applies if there ARE deviations.. If there are no deviations, the part regarding playing characteristics does not even come into play.. If you don't believe me, ask a professor of the english language. THEY clearly refers to the damage.. If it does not refer to damage, what does it refer to??

So, if this was written as a computer program, it would be like this:

IF DEVIATION DUE TO DAMAGE THEN
---IF DAMAGE CHANGES CHARACTERISTICS THEN
------ILLEGAL
---ELSE
------MAY BE ALLOWED
---END IF
ELSE
---LEGAL
END-IF

The other rule:

Quote:
2.04.07 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.


Clearly, outdoor table tennis is legal and promoted by the ITTF, so it is considered use, not treatment.



Quote:
I'd be interested to know what the sun does to the rubber to give it an effect that you like without the characteristics of the playing surface being altered? (i.e. the only way the loophole can be legal)


The sun hardens the rubber and harder rubber has less grip.. It's really that simple.. Hard rubber acts more like plastic than rubber.


LOL! You're admitting that the characteristics of the rubber are changed by the sun and you're trying to claim a loophole by breaking down language used to express the rule in a bizarre fashion and claiming a meaning that was never intended by the author.

I don't need to ask an English Professor as I'm sufficiently well qualified in the English language to understand the true meaning of rule 2.04.07.01.

Your analogy should be tax evasion (which is a criminal offence) and not tax avoidance, which can be dodgy loophole that circumvents a rule but which is otherwise not illegal - albeit that loopholes are usually closed and often reversed retrospectively.

I really think that morality is the correct word to be used in this instance and if I felt the need to circumvent a rule in this fashion I'd be taking a hard look at myself.


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