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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 12:17 
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But, you see, this is precisely why these rules are stupid. If I just don't clean my Talon for two years and it loses some friction, then I'm fine. However, if I CONCIOUSLY DECIDED not to clean it so it becomes frictionless, then I'm breaking the rules. The same goes for the dude who've played with the same Mark V for ten years. I guess, unless they make everybody play with exactly the same blades and rubbers (short pips with very little spin) it's incredibly tough to regulate as it's hard to regulate your intent. It's good that table tennis players don't usually use steroids so, at least we don't have to worry about that...


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 12:51 
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nachalnik wrote:
But, you see, this is precisely why these rules are stupid. If I just don't clean my Talon for two years and it loses some friction, then I'm fine. However, if I CONCIOUSLY DECIDED not to clean it so it becomes frictionless, then I'm breaking the rules.


I’m not sure about that. I would view not cleaning it after years of normal use (consciously or not) as being different from not cleaning it after dropping it in a bucket of dust. Basically, if I apply anything to my rubber or expose it to an environment (outside of normal use) that I know will alter its performance characteristics I think that I could reasonably be accused of treating it. Regulation is another matter. I agree, rules that cannot be enforced are stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 19:30 
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The rules aren't great but still the players are to blame, but if the rules could be enforced this discussion would have ended 1 post after it started. I think that if someone is exposing his rubber to special circumstances to alter the properties(eg. Playing in the sun, keeping your bat in a dusty environment etc.) he is immoral and if he were my teammate I wouldn't be too happy about it because that also reflects on me.

If the player isn't aware of it, how can he be to blame, but if he is aware, it starts depending on the level he plays at, low recreational players might not want to invest in another blade, but at PB's level that is hardly an excuse. Ideally we would never need an umpire to enforce rules, but this shows we can't do without them.


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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 19:39 
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So summing up this thread, I believe no one is breaking any rules but the ambiguous wording of the rules leaves interpretation open to your own personal conscience. And until all the vagueness is removed from the rules, players with more conscience will always be at a disadvantage.

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Last edited by Fish on 03 Jan 2018, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 21:21 
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Pumpa wrote:
The rules aren't great but still the players are to blame, but if the rules could be enforced this discussion would have ended 1 post after it started. I think that if someone is exposing his rubber to special circumstances to alter the properties(eg. Playing in the sun, keeping your bat in a dusty environment etc.) he is immoral and if he were my teammate I wouldn't be too happy about it because that also reflects on me.

If the player isn't aware of it, how can he be to blame, but if he is aware, it starts depending on the level he plays at, low recreational players might not want to invest in another blade, but at PB's level that is hardly an excuse. Ideally we would never need an umpire to enforce rules, but this shows we can't do without them.

Intent is not something that can be written into the rules. The rules say what they say and don't say what they don't say. If you stay within the rules by intentionally play outdoors TT because you like the effects on your rubber is the same as if you just happen to like playing outdoors without intentionally doing it. It makes no difference. The same action can't be considered one thing if there is a certain intent or another thing if there is no intent. There is no rule that says that a rubber used in tournaments may not be used for outdoor TT or anything like that.. The ITTF could easily change the rules to for example requiring a rubber to retain a certain amount of friction on a rubber when used in a sanctioned event AND a device that can accurately measure the friction.
It's interesting how the "moral Police" get their pants wet when someone uses the wording of the rules in his favor and on the other hand, there are threads on TT forums about boosting with substances that do not emit VOC's (above the legal threshold) and therefore can't be detected (i.e. Paraffin).. Sure, it can't be detected but as it alters the rubbers property from the factory, it is not legal and yet, in that MEGA THREAD about boosting on that other forum, not a single person has voiced a ethical concern.. This is a screwed up double standard..YES, BOOSTING WITH A LOW VOC BOOSTER IS STILL AGAINST THE RULES UNLESS THE FACTORY DOES IT! No moral concerns there.... Double Standard!!
Boosting CLEARLY chemically alters the properties of the rubber and therefore, all tuning outside the factory is AGAINST THE RULES! Playing a uniform rubber that has lost friction due to use is NOT against the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 22:42 
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I don't know what megathread you're referring to, but I consider boosting with anything to be a clear contravention of the rules, and morally/ethically equivalent to any other action which changes the playing properties of a setup. No double standard here.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 23:01 
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LordCope wrote:
I don't know what megathread you're referring to, but I consider boosting with anything to be a clear contravention of the rules, and morally/ethically equivalent to any other action which changes the playing properties of a setup. No double standard here.


Thread is 26 pages long right now.. and not one complaint about tuning violating the rules.. I personally don't care as I believe that any rules that can't be enforced are stupid.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_po ... 26#1010370

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2018, 23:07 
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LordCope wrote:
I don't know what megathread you're referring to, but I consider boosting with anything to be a clear contravention of the rules, and morally/ethically equivalent to any other action which changes the playing properties of a setup. No double standard here.


+1 on this. PB, you are assuming that people who are boosting their inverted rubbers are the same folks who criticize your approach. Quite a few people do not boost/alter their rubbers, I guess you would call us 'stupid'.

As far as this whole fascination with loopholes and being 'smart' - I'm not convinced you are even winning this particular battle (let's ignore ratings and Florida State Championship). I'm not sure your reputation has much upside from advertising your approach to begin with (what was the point, really, in repeatedly bringing it up - I saw you starting to insert references to 'outdoor' play quite out of context in several posts lately), but you probably have quite a lot to lose, since some people are not really viewing what you do as smart, but rather unsportsmanslike.

P.S. Regarding non-enforceable/hard to enforce rules ('stupid' ones) - someone said: "Integrity is what you do when no one else is looking".

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2018, 01:32 
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I do indeed view some of the actions/answers as a lack of sportsmanship and I completely fail to understand the ongoing refusal to simply come clean with what they do. In my opinion frictionless pimples have to become legal again, yet actually they are not. Where's the petition, where are the efforts to bring back legality?

And of course there's the sidestep into boosting - I do not boost, for the record - but as I've stated earlier the comparision does have severe flaws: Boosting doesn't change your playing style and it doesn't give you such a completely different rubber, especially not different to other rubbers legally available on the market. Very old backside rubbers which behave like anti-spin are rare to spot, especially at higher levels, but these users would play alike with antis or short-pips you actually can buy legally.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2018, 02:14 
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I've been reading this thread and it's pretty interesting. Regardless of the outcome though, I would rather you guys remain friends 'cuz I'd be pretty sad if you guys get angry at each other ;( This is a forum where we accept everybody, so ye

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2018, 02:17 
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Red wrote:
I do indeed view some of the actions/answers as a lack of sportsmanship and I completely fail to understand the ongoing refusal to simply come clean with what they do. In my opinion frictionless pimples have to become legal again, yet actually they are not. Where's the petition, where are the efforts to bring back legality?

And of course there's the sidestep into boosting - I do not boost, for the record - but as I've stated earlier the comparision does have severe flaws: Boosting doesn't change your playing style and it doesn't give you such a completely different rubber, especially not different to other rubbers legally available on the market. Very old backside rubbers which behave like anti-spin are rare to spot, especially at higher levels, but these users would play alike with antis or short-pips you actually can buy legally.


Lower friction does not change your playing style either.. It gives you an advantage with the same playing style just like boosting. If it would not give you an advantage, nobody would boost.. duh!! Most offensive players at the higher level (above 2000) boost.. That's just a fact..
The ONLY reason that frictionless pips were banned originally was as I pointed out due to a feud between Eberhard Schoeler and Herbert Neubauer and Eberhard used his position on the ITTF board of Directors to push through his personal agenda to hurt his feud and competitor. There was NEVER a rule change requiring any amount of friction when a rubber is used in an event. To change the rules, the general assembly has to vote on it. They NEVER did on banning the use of rubbers below a certain amount of friction when used in a sanctioned event. If they indeed want to require a certain amount of friction on a rubber, they should pass a rule. If there indeed was such rule, this entire problem would go away. Have the general assembly vote on it instead of trying to circumvent the due process for such change. The board of directors has no authority to change the rules!

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2018, 02:42 
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Retriever wrote:
As I said previously, whether playing TT in the sun is a treatment lies in the intent of playing TT in the sun, and as such is clearly unenforceable, unless the player themselves were to sign to a statutory declaration that they were playing TT in the sun in order to change the properties of the rubber, which I can't see happening any time soon.

Similarly player boosting is supposed to be against the rules, while manufacture boosting is within the rules. Both could be using exactly the same substance on exactly the same rubbers. Note that it is not the booster that is illegal, but the illegality lies in who applies it. Again the rule is unenforceable.

Key word, "unenforceable". Which is exactly why the RULE itself is immoral because it creates an unsure environment, favoring certain players over others. Making rules that are unenforceable is pointless.

Retriever wrote:
Where are the people trying to change the laws / rules to be enforceable and fair? That would be my moral duty if I felt strongly enough that rules were unjust or a result of corruption.

Given that you feel there isn't ample outcry in the TT community should give you a pulse-check on just where the TT community as a whole stands on the matter. Either they:
-Don't care if people break the rules (aka don't see them as detrimental to their game)
-Break the rules themselves and don't want the rules enforced.
The take home message there is...nobody finds these things particularly morally egregious enough to take action. Which tells me it's either a non-issue or they prefer to have the perceived advantages that these rules afford them. Note that I say the RULES afford them advantages.
To make things right, get rid of the rules...that's my opinion. But like most people, none of this bothers me enough to picket the ITTF.

Retriever wrote:
BTW, I did try to start a separate thread in General, "Where do you draw the line?" to try to keep this thread on the equipment.

I think that mods or admins can splice threads. I used to be able to do this on my Jeeps forum where I was a mod.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2018, 02:45 
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For most players, boosting is a disadvantage. In fact, the trend in inverted rubbers if for slower more linear rubbers like Karis and Regalis these days. For some people, the more slippery the LP the more of a disadvantage it is...I know many people who are worse against grippy sponged LPs than the Talons, DGs, and DTECs of the world. It's all relative.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 04 Jan 2018, 02:59 
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Red wrote:
Boosting doesn't change your playing style and it doesn't give you such a completely different rubber, especially not different to other rubbers legally available on the market. Very old backside rubbers which behave like anti-spin are rare to spot, especially at higher levels, but these users would play alike with antis or short-pips you actually can buy legally.


Boosting significantly alters the quality of the rubber and the speed, spin and trajectory of the ball on loops. I can almost always tell when I'm playing against someone who boosts. There's one player I practice with and play practice matches against regularly who is a 2050-level two-winged looper very open about his boosting, and I beat him 80% of the time when he doesn't boost, whereas he beats me at about the same rate when he does boost. This is because he loops, and I block with my pips, whereupon if he boosts, he can fast-loop many balls that, without a booster, he'd otherwise net or slow-loop. We openly joke about it, with him, upon netting a ball against my blocks, saying things like, "Guess I need to boost again, huh?" So boosting an inverted rubber to give it more speed/spin and making long pips more frictionless to give them more spin reversal are really mirror images of one another, in terms of what they do for your game. The difference is this: making long pips frictionless naturally, through playing outdoors or simply through extensive use, is perfectly legal, whereas boosting is not legal.

And the second difference is this: as Pushblocker has explained, boosting is EXTREMELY widespread, especially at higher levels, whereas as far as pips players go, many of us don't live in places where you can play outdoors (I'm not playing table tennis outside when it's like 10 degrees F out, like it's been the past week here), and so natural wear of the rubber with play is the only thing that makes my pips more frictionless. Those of you complaining about "morality" despite the fact that this silly and unenforceable rule is the product of pure corruption should take that difference into account and should also realize that a rule that isn't enforced (and that CAN'T even be enforced, in this case) isn't a real rule. Imagine there's a club rule that says you have to put your name on a list to play next on a particular table, except no one enforces that rule and most of the regulars don't actually do it, and simply call "next." You can put your name on the list, but the result is that you're going to be sitting around and waiting for a long, long time, or you can break the rule and call "next," even though it would give you an advantage over those who insist on following the rule. What would you do in this situation? Well, it's the same thing here: if most of the good players are boosting, and no one is enforcing the rule against it, why wouldn't you do what you need to do to give yourself an advantage in playing them, whether that means boosting yourself or, if a pips player, then making your pips more frictionless? Just like the hypothetical club rule I described or like the law against jaywalking, an unenforced rule doesn't really exist in the world, only on paper. Abiding by what it says on that piece of paper doesn't make you more "moral"; it just makes you a rigid, out-of-touch stickler, like a pedestrian who insists on standing for two minutes at a completely empty intersection to wait for the "Walk" signal to flash.

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 Post subject: Re: Giant Dragon Talon
PostPosted: 27 Jan 2018, 10:48 
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I have Tibhar Samsoniv Pure Wood blade (blade made of ayous, not balsa)
http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/ ... -pure-wood
Will talon suitable for this blade or will be too slow?


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