OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Wouldn't it be great to have a table/graph with all the long pimple rubbers known to mankind, with all the main characteristics and comparison between them?Well I think that would be awesome, but the trouble is identifying the main parameters that characterise a rubber, and working out a systematic way of measuring and comparing them (phew...that a mouthful ).

So I like to ask all players here to see if you can help.

I'll start off (and will add more later):

Parameter: Blocking speed of long pimple rubber (flat blocking)
Measurement method: Put unglued rubber flat onto the table, drop ball from a fixed height, the rebound height is a measure of speed of the long pimple rubber. This must be done both for OX and with sponge.

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Parameter: Pimple softness
Measurement method: Cut off a measured section (eg 2x2cm) of the topsheet of the unused section of the rubber (the cut off). Put a fixed weight on it (eg a standard weight from an old scale), and measure how far it compresses the rubber. Use a vernier to measure the gap. Gap width is an indication of the rubber hardness. Will have to find the right weight that compresses an average rubber by a decent amount as a reference.

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

Parameter: Pimple dimensions
Measurement method: Simply measure the width and height of the pimples with a vernier.

Parameter: Pimple spacing
Measurement method: Simply measure the shortest and longest distance between adjacent pimples.

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

Parameter: Pimple friction
Measurement method: Need a plastic weight made of similar material as that of balls. It needs to have a flat or slightly curved base. Attach a string to it and attach the other side to a force scale. Measure the force need to make the weight move on the pimple rubber. Repeat for a heavier weight to determine the friction level when the pimples are bent.
the force needed is a direct measure of the friction (static) of the pimples.
Not sure where to get a force scale from as yet.

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

You sound like you're volunteering?!

What makes it tough is that pimple geometry is more than just spacing width. As an example, Toni Hold Virus 2 was designed so that it can be mounted on your bat either lengthways, or sideways, depending on how much spin you want to generate with your strokes. Also, some pips taper from a thicker base.

I certainly don't have the brains to interpret all the measurements, should they be taken, though slipperiness/grippiness and softness/hardness would be especially helpful.

Perhaps just a smaller number of measurements-

* Grip -clamp bat in front of robot with programmed spin and apply visual rating /10 based on what the ball does.
* Softness, suggestion above alreay.
* Speed. Measure ball rebound height with the sheet placed on a wooden table, or use a robot while bat clamped as above.

Then, a description of unusual characteristics (ie dense spacing, thin or tapered pips, stems sticky on one side [Combi?], etc), and a comprehensive test drive by a single user. Wow, wouldn't that be great.

If as well as the above, each pip were rated by a single person for a list of harder-to-measure-with-tools playing characteristics, I'd be studying the data like a hawk, and my brain wouldn't need large doses of caffeine and physics to try and make sense of a list of dry numbers.

BTW, the internet site that hosted the results would gain instant mega popularity!

PS If the speed and grip of a large list of inverted rubbers were measured with a robot, it would cause a massive scandle!!! (From the manufacturers point of view.)

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Custom Re-Impact OFF
Hexer HD 1.9
Hexer Pips 1.9

Member of Anastasia's Fan Club

Yep I'm volunteering, but I would need a lot of help!

Yes good points, the direction of the pimples needs to be identified, although I feel it's still debatable how much difference it really makes.
And you're right, some pips are not cylindrical and a little conical.

I still feel a standard set of test measurement, performed in an identical fashion every time would be VERY useful, even if it does not define a single parameter but a combination of a few.

If we can work out what test CAN be performed that will

1. Can be measured accurately
2. provides useful information

this would be worthwhile!

Robots are good (I have one), although the balls do not come out exactly the same way every time...so it would need to be calibrated with something fixed reference everytime a test was performed...

Thanks for your input, very good feedback! Hope we can keep the discussion going to come up with a useful set of measurement!

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

The robot could be referenced with a dedicated sheet of hard plastic, wood, or something that won't wear down over time, the way rubber does. Return bounce length for standard low speed =a, for standard high speed =b; standard spin = curve height of c.

For inverted, simply measuring both spin (ie by degree of elevated return trajectory) and rebound speed, for both slow and fast balls, would be a huge buzz.

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Custom Re-Impact OFF
Hexer HD 1.9
Hexer Pips 1.9

Member of Anastasia's Fan Club

Yes that makes sense, although it's still not going to be easy to measure these parameters.

My plan is to start with LP rubbers, as I already have a keen interest in them, and since most manufacturers only make 1 or 2 of them, I have a good chance of actually testing the majority of them.

But the same test methods or fixtures can probably be used for inverted rubbers too, so that would be worth looking into as well.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

Once all the data is gathered it is easy to reassemble this into a relationship tree (cladogram) - I do this all the time. This way you don't have to understand how each parameter relates to the others you simply have to look at the tree to understand who is related to who.

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

Sounds good Mathias!

All we need to do is come up with some ways of measuring the stuff. Of course nothing beats actually playing and trying the rubber yourself, but then the results become more of an opinion. If we can show that the measurements seem to tie up with our own experiences, then we know they are worthwhile...

So we need some lateral thinkers that can come up with simple tests that can measure some of the parameters on the rubbers...the sort of test that you used to do in physics classes...

Cheers!

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

To test friction, place uncut sheet on a reference surface, under a reference weight (ie slab of wood to keep it flat), and measure the force (with a spring scale) it takes to drag it along by a length of string taped to the back of the sheet.

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Custom Re-Impact OFF
Hexer HD 1.9
Hexer Pips 1.9

Member of Anastasia's Fan Club

Yep that almost exactly what I suggested a few posts ago (guess you didn't see it)...great minds think alike

Any idea where i can get a decent force scale?

Cheers!

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

If I can assure you guys the analysis is easy to do - comparing objective measurements with the opinions of pip players. We would call it 'mirror tree' analysis. The tough part is taking all the measurements in the first place and making sure they were representative.

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Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

You would need to be careful about smooth tips.... its not easy actually because of the different hardness of the pips. You need a way of keeping these two separate.

_________________
Tibhar Grass D.techs OX | Donic BigSlam 2.0mm .
Re-Impact Medusa (balsa / 1-ply cherry wood)
Frictionless strokes | Attacking pip strokes | Greggy's advice | Bollsbrother | Sebastian Sauer . . . . . .

Well my way of thinking was to have one light weight which would not be enough the bend any tips, and therefore would be a measure of the tip surface friction.

The other measurement would be with a heavier weight, which would be enough to bend most pips. This would be a measure of the edges and sides of the pips.

Of course these would not be all that accurate, but it's still representive of soft and hard strokes with the rubber.

_________________
OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide