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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2014, 11:16 
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Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
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Your thoughts on this statement: "You're a beginner level player, you shouldn't start off with Long Pimples; master inverted then transition to LP."

Do you agree? Why or why not?

I promise I'm not trolling, I heard this today as a beginner to intermediate player who usually plays Jpen inverted, and have recently acquired LP on a Cpen to see what it's like.

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2014, 13:28 
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In my neck of the woods, when you buy a cheap ping pong table, it comes with a set of bats with short pips...if you play pp in the gym at school, the bats are very durable and cheap made of plastic and covered with a fabric (green in my case)that plays like pips on both sides...I think its perfectly fine to start of with lps at the beginning because like other things, lps may be better suited to your body type and athletic abilities than other kinds of rubber and they do take time to learn.

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2014, 16:50 
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There is wisdom and merit in beginning with dual inverted and learning the strokes with those rubbers, especially if you are young. LP can be an easy out from the harder shots and serve returns to master than inverted. However, LP has its own set of things to learn and can be a godsend for some...especially for those with some kind of mobility problem. So starting with the in that instance is well justified. There is nothing wrong with learning to play with LP from the start though, as long as you recognise it has its drawbacks and as your level goes up you will have some problems beating some players, that you just would not have had if you developed well with double inverted. Many players (of an upper level) find the weakness of LP quickly and it can be difficult to gain ground at that point.

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2014, 17:06 
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We have a lp guy at my club and he gives a lot of people above his level fits but at the same time there's always some beginner kid around with a worn out premade who is oblivious to the pips and gives him a good and proper no spin spanking and that dampens his rating progress (and his spirits).

It shows up the advantages and flaws of using pips at intermediate levels.

Using long pips is so foreign compared to inverted that I bet its worthwhile starting with lp. I think the reason most people wouldn't dare suggest it is because you stand a very good chance of ruining a perfectly good inverted player before he's had the chance to learn anything.

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PostPosted: 27 Mar 2014, 17:55 
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I've heard this a great deal.. it's standard doctrine for ETTA coaches. The thinking is straightforward. The modern game is all about spin, and lots of it. The top players in the world hit the ball ferociously hard, and with an incredible amount of spin. If you aspire to compete at world level, you might as well learn the same way.

Additionally, the key sets of strokes on the FH and BH form the basis of table tennis, and are easiest to coach and practice with double inverted. Everyone else learning (because of the doctrine) learns this way, and rocking that boat is disruptive.

Once you've covered the basics, can read, handle, and generate spin, have excellent footwork, anticipation and tactics, then if you decide you want to specialise in pips of some sort, or transition to a more defensive game, you have a solid foundation. If you look at any of the great modern defenders in the game at the moment, they're all highly skilled in FH and BH attacking shots, footwork, anticipation and spin-reading.

That's the rationale. And it has a certain logic, if you're a talented child starting out in the sport.

However, if you're a social player, or a generic league player, and you have no aspirations to country or international standard, then there's no reason in the world not to play and learn with whatever the hell you want.

I'd class myself as a beginner - I've been playing seriously for 1.5 years, and I've spent precisely none of that time playing with double inverted. I've not played a single competitive match with double inverted. I'm progressing, and keeping pace with some of the highly training youngsters in the club, and I take part in the training too. If you read my blog you'll see that having LP on one side of my blade has made some of the coaching drills hard to do, so I also have a double inverted, but I'm coming around to the view that this isn't needed or beneficial. The coaching staff are coming round to my approach, and starting to be quite enthusiastic about the variety I can bring, and looking into finding other players with a (modern) defensive style that I could learn from.

Ultimately, it's a game... most of us play for enjoyment. If you get enjoyment from playing with LP, why not start with LP from the beginning?

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PostPosted: 28 Mar 2014, 01:04 
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Ninja of the Holy Chtchet
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Thanks guys for all of your thoughtful responses.

I guess what I'm concerned with is "Ruining" my progress. I don't aspire to be a world class player, but I do want to be competitve. I'm 40, certainly no youngster, but in pretty decent shape and fairly quick.

As a beginner who is firmly entrenched in penhold (Jpen with inverted FH and SP backhand, and one Cpen with inverted FH and LP backhand, both RPB), I don't want to develop any bad habits. But I am naturally a blocker and a pusher, and have always struggled with looping topspin, I don't know if it's an anatomical/ergonomic thing. I am able to flick short balls pretty effectively. Smashing and looping are not so great, and something I work on when I can.

Note, I haven't been coached yet, so there's that.

But, why not play both? Perhaps I'm too low level, but I just don't see playing LP tainting my inverted play if I play them concurrently.

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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2014, 02:02 
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I started off with double inverted. Played for around a month. Neither forehand nor backhand were particularly well-developed, though backhand less so.

I wrote an e-mail to Pingskills, highlighting the style of play that I wanted to learn (true modern defence). I asked if I should move to long pimples immediately, or wait until I've mastered the strokes with my inverted rubbers. Alois replied promptly to suggest that I should use long pimples straight away.

I'm delighted he gave me that advice. Learning to use long pimples effectively is really hard. If I hadn't started then, if I'd started now, my LP usage would be woeful.

However, I *have* made a concerted effort to keep up with playing inverted and SP backhands. I actually play in our handicap games against lower-level opponents with an inverted backhand so that I can practice my backhand loop in case I ever need to use it in a match. I also twiddle a fairly significant amount when using my inverted/LP combo bat.

I think either way will work. As long as you're also using the other type of rubber every now and then to "keep your eye in".

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PostPosted: 29 Mar 2014, 04:53 
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I coach sent me a 13 y old boy, who had just started TT and tended to chop on his backhand, last year he had reached number 15 in Oceania for under 15 and is in the national squad
he now chops less but stays at the table for more effect

If it suits them get them in early

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PostPosted: 03 Apr 2014, 04:54 
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350 ~ 1800 USATT (100 points ~ 200 USATT points)

I started to play competitive TT at my 34 years.
0) Down to 50 points -- basement TT, no own custom racket, no wins during 25 tournament games.
1) First jump: 130 to 240 -> Friendship 837 0.8
2) I was told that LP is a crutch of TT. I wasted a year playing various (thin inverted, antispins) BH rubbers.
3) Big jump: 150 to 360 -> SpinLord Dornenglanz ox. I have beaten all of those how told me about "crutches".
4) Current no rating progress: partially due deflation of rating, partially due raising quantity of LP players and overall adaptation to them.

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