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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2019, 06:40 
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Tsp Curl P1r 1.5mm vs Tsp Curl P4 1.5mm.

Before I start, please note the sponge thickness. For me personally, the thicker the sponge under long pips the better, as it gives me chances to manipulate the spin. Probably why you don't see Joo, Ma Te, etc using ox pips. This comparison would be different in ox or lower thicknesses.

I dont think these two great long pips have been discussed enough as a comparison (at least last I checked), so throwing in my two cents.

Both require a fair amount of skill to use I think, so not that suitable for beginners, but if you're an experienced chopper, both of these are well worth a try.

Chopping:
From my experience with both these rubbers, Tsp Curl P4 is vastly better on the first couple of chops. The amount of backspin I can generate from it is insane. Almost as much, if not the same as Hurricane 3 in terms of backspin. You can really feel the ball dig into the rubber with a good cut, which is very satisfying. You're not relying much on your opponents spin either with P4.
Past the first couple of chops though, P1r is a lot better. Chops feel more secure for me under pressure, and you can still vary the amount of spin you put on the ball, though not quite as effectively. The heaviest chops with P1r are heavier than with P4, but they come later in a rally.
I think with P1r, you can apply heavy chop on shots with the odd lighter or extra heavy chop and be successful against high level players. With P4, I think you're kind of in trouble if the rally lasts too long unless you actively vary the spin like crazy, which affects your consistency. Either that or be prepared to get back a lot of balls.
I'm not a fan of the soft sponge under P4 and I think this may be part of the problem I have with it, as you have to dig it too much to get juice out of it in my opinion, which makes me lose control with it against pressure strikes. I'm curious how much would change if the sponge was swapped between the rubbers.
P1r might have the slight edge here for me. It's hard to tell if that would still be the case if the sponge was swapped around though.

Attacking:
P4 is easier to hit with. It really feels like a dead inverted or slow short pips. You can 'loop' with it, only without the actual spin :). You can even attack balls lower than the table. If only it was actually effective or faster.... As it is, it's too slow and too normal to be effective and can be countered easily by decent opponents. I have the odd time managed to get a lot of speed out of it, but I'm not sure how I did it. Must be angle of pips at contact. Perhaps there's a trick to this I need to find...
P1r is fairly easy to hit with (not as easy), so long as the ball is high enough. Loose balls are easy to put away and can easy counter hit with it. While I wouldn't say it's difficult to return, it's not easy either, if the hit is good.
Overall I would say p1r wins this department, as while not quite as easy to do, hitting with p1r is a viable option in a match setting. With p4, I think you'd be best to pretty much always twiddle to inverted when hitting on backhand side.

Blocking:
Neither are the best rubbers in this department.
P1r is better at it than P4 though. P4 too slow and spin sensitive to really be useful in this area. P1r is acceptable at blocking when the time calls for it, and you can angle blocks fairly well, but definitely not a rubber for close to the table blockers looking for funk bounces, or even players looking for a blockers pip to setup your forehand (my opinion anyway).

Returning serves:
P1r hands down. Less spin sensitive. Also better for punch blocks etc.

Against other pips:
P4 is better against other long pips, but, surprisingly, P1r is better against short pips. For me anyway. Both feel glassy against other pips, but I lose two of biggest qualities of P4 in this situation, control and heavy backspin on first chop. Against inverted, the ball is heavy enough to dig into the sponge, allowing you to cut the ass of it. Against short pips, it doesn't dig into the sponge easily and feels really slidy. For this reason, with harder sponge of P1r, I found it easier to handle short pip strikes. Both not great obviously in this scenario though, but we don't use long pips to play other pips :).

So P1r won all the catagories I listed here, but it's not that black and white. P4 has characteristics that still make it worth investing time in, as variation has always been a big part of my chopping game. I don't have to change my game much, outside of twiddling to inverted to hit backhands. With P1r its less about variation and more about quality of chop to setup attacking opportunities. Worth thinking about when deciding which rubber to try, if you can only choose one.

Curl P1r is better than P4 at:
Handling heavy spin, returning serves (less spin sensitive), max backspin, taking some stress away from chopping, effective surprise hitting

Curl P4 is better than P1r at:
Creating your own spin, heavy spin on dead balls or first chop, easier to hit with (but not overly effective), control

I win points more quickly with P4, but I feel more secure with P1r. P4 feels like a small shield that can be used as a weapon (spin variation and heavy cut), but it's less stable when under pressure. It's harder to defend when my back is against the wall so to speak, and I think that's because of the soft sponge. I personally prefer the harder sponge of P1r. Now, if you don't vary the backspin much, you'll probably have more control, as in get ball back on table, with P4, but I'm very active with chopping, and the ball sinks into the sponge too much to control off balance returns for me.

With P1r, I feel more comfortable to play the opportunities as I see them. It feels like a bigger shield, more stable under pressure. This actually positively affects my confidence in using my forehand as well. I hate that I can't apply a ton of backspin on first chop, but what you can do after first chop kind of makes up for it. I have to adjust my game to play with it though, less float and chop on backhand side and more heavy spin on a majority of chops, looking to setup a forehand or backhand attack to finish. Less fooling opponent with amount of backspin on the ball, though I do it still to a degree.

I think with Tsp Curl P1r, it's more likely that you'll be harder to play against. It's worth noting that's its a more difficult rubber to play with though, but for me, coming from short pip ox/hardbat, all defender long pips are easy to chop with. I've read that many find P1r to be difficult to play with, especially in 1.5mm. I'm going to assume that's because they're mostly coming from thin sponge or ox long pips.

Basically, it depends on how you want to play. I hope this helps someone out there looking into the two rubbers.

If you want to get a lot of balls back, I'd strongly recommend Tsp Curl P4 in 0.5mm.
If you're looking to play a more dangerous, aggressive game, I'd recommend Tsp Curl P1r in as high a thickness as you can handle.
I think if you're going to use Curl P4 in 1.5mm, you're someone looking for something similar to short pip spin range with long pip cushioning when defending.

Edit:
Forgot to add that variation in cutting (from float to very heavy backspin) is not essestial for Curl P1r, but definitely beneficial, certainly in 1.5mm. However, variation in cutting I think is essential if you're going to use Curl P4, certainly at higher levels.
This is because the spin builds with P1r, whereas P4 caps like inverted depending on the force of your cut. You also get some odd bounces with P1r but P4 is very straightforward. For this reason, once your opponent can time your heavy chop with P4, you're going to need to mix up the spin to keep them guessing. If you don't, you're either got to be a wall or they're going to loop you off the table. The good news though is that, depending on the quality of your cut, the backspin potential of P4 is high, very high. So, with a good cut, it will take a very good player to lift it. Most players I come across rarely lift the first chop with P4. But with the ones that do, I find the rally then lasts longer than with P1r.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 20 Jul 2019, 19:48, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2019, 14:18 
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Thanks, for this rather insightful post...

I play a mix-style with LP - Close to the table (Push/block), and at times, mid-distance, away from the table, to chop (or try)...

I want to try my hand at proper chopping away from the table... I ordered the Yinhe Neptune (0.7mm), as I'd heard/read that it's a decent beginner rubber, for chopping... If, at all I get better/am successful as a chopper, then somewhere down the line, I will have to decide between the P4 and P1-R....

_________________
Setup 1 : Donic Defplay Senso V3 Blade Palio AK-47 Blue Max (Black) Yinhe Neptune 0.6mm (Red)
Setup 2 : GKI Euro XX Blade Xiom Vega Europe Max (Black) Bomb Talent OX (Red)
Setup 3 : XVT Hinoki Balsa Carbon Blade 729 Focus III Snipe 40° Max (Black) Dawei 388D-1 OX (Red)
Setup 4 : 729 C-5 Blade Reactor Corbor Max (Black) Palio CK531A 0.6mm (Red)
Setup 5 : Butterfly Joyner-H Blade (Black Metal Tag) Palio AK-47 Yellow Max (Black) Yasaka Mark V Max (Red)


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2019, 18:50 
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ootbs wrote:
Thanks, for this rather insightful post...

I play a mix-style with LP - Close to the table (Push/block), and at times, mid-distance, away from the table, to chop (or try)...

I want to try my hand at proper chopping away from the table... I ordered the Yinhe Neptune (0.7mm), as I'd heard/read that it's a decent beginner rubber, for chopping... If, at all I get better/am successful as a chopper, then somewhere down the line, I will have to decide between the P4 and P1-R....


Neptune should do you just fine :). I haven't used it myself, but I've heard about it. Curl P1r or P4 will be great later down the line once you get more confident chopping.

I've linked a great video below if you haven't seen it. Joo Sae Hyuk demonstrates his chops fairly close up with some slow motion footage as well. If you're a visual learner, you won't get much better 'coaching' than this footage for chopping.


_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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