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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 02:40 
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As promised in my other thread, I went ahead and spent a bit of time putting together a quick comparison of the two rubbers. Both rubbers were tested on a JSH blade in a 0.3-0.6 thickness unless stated otherwise. All the rankings were for the LP rubber family, i.e. the speed of 10 – would be the fastest LP available, etc. Sorry it's a bit wordy but I hope helps someone with their decision. I am not an expert so YMMV.

Speed (P1r > P4)
This one is easy and obvious to all: P1r is MUCH faster than the P4. The P4 feels really dead and slow at first. Speed-wise I would rate: P1r – 8/10, P4 – 4/10.

Spin (P4 > P1r)
You often read that the P1r is the “spinniest thing eva” - because Joo does x-y-z. Well, Joo is not human… Moving on. Both are spinny, but for me personally & based on the feedback received, I would rate P1r – 8/10 and P4 – 10/10 in the spin department. When I played the P4, the feedback was that the spin on chops was insane. It’s so spinny that I would say 98% of players out there would push your second chop. When choosing this rubber, make sure this is the outcome you want :)

To be fair I did try the P1r on the VKM and I did feel a tad more spin on the chops, maybe 8.5/10. I didn’t like my FH loop feel on it so it was a no-go for me. YMMV.

Feel/Control (P4 > P1r)
When I first tried the P4 I couldn’t believe how “nasty” this thing felt: slow, dead, and soft. When chopping spinny loops the shots would barely cross the net. At first I hated it. It just begged for an active play. But once I got used to it, I realized how DEADLY and consistent this LP was. It is definitely a notch above P1r in the control department.

The P1R on a thin sponge feels just right but it sort of bottoms out and you feel the blade too much. In the past year or so I had tried a lot of P1rs and always preferred the ones that were closer to 0.6 than the ones with a super thin 0.3 sponge. Believe it or not I can not only feel but can also SEE the difference when comparing the rubbers side by side. I did try the rubber in a thicker 1.0 and 1.5 sponges and I couldn’t really control it. Thick or not – the P1r on JSH is NOT an easy LP to use. The rubber is a lot more forgiving on the VKM.

As a side note I know a very good chopper (2000+) who kicks my butt playing the P1r in 1.5. He is able not only chop with it consistently but also attack quite well. I let him chop with my P4 for a few mins and he had zero issues adjusting and managed to chop 8-10 loops in a row without any adjustment whatsoever. Go figure.

Deception (P1r > P4)
Neither rubber is known for producing funky balls, but P1r is a lot more deceptive overall. You don’t have to worry about spin as much and flat hitting vs slow spinny balls will drive your opponent nuts. P4 has way too much grip thus its knuckle-ball effect is almost non-existent. I would rate them 6/10 and 2/10 respectively (with 388D or Dtec grass in OX being a 10).

Chopping (P4 > P1r)
Both feel good and I have gone back and forth trying to decide which one felt better. I know P1r very well and it chops great. However, in a pure training setting (i.e. coach loops to bh and I chop), with the P1r you have to time your chops just right and hit the sweet spot each and every time – i.e. brush the pips and not hit the ball. I always had issues with landing more than 3-4 chops in a row consistently. One tiny adjustment – and the ball flies off the table or goes into the net. The P4 is a lot more forgiving. As long as you have a decent chopping technique, the ball would float nicely and land with great spin. If you miss, you know why you missed. The P4 also allows me to chop from under the table with confidence which isn’t exactly easy with a thin P1r.

Pushing (P1r >= P4)
IMHO P1r is a lot better at aggressive pushes (due to its harder sponge). I used to win a lot of points outright by LP pushing into my opponent’s deep FH. Although, a lot of times it was either a hit or miss. P4 seems to be better at making sure your pushes land on the table; It’s just hard to push aggressively but with practice I believe it’s doable. This is the area of my game I am trying to improve the most after switching to the P4.

Serve receive (P1r > P4)
Both behave like LP rubbers and are somewhat forgiving. However, I tend to make more mistakes with P4 especially when returning heavy underspin serves. You must commit to your stroke and do a proper follow-through, or else it goes right into the net.

Attacking/all-around (P1r = P4)
I would say this is where the sponge thickness matters the most. I’ve seen people do wonders with a thick P1r while I couldn’t land a simple BH smash in an 0.5. P4 is a lot more forgiving IMHO and you don’t need a lot of sponge to hit those shots. I feel a lot more comfortable exploring all-around game with a P4. Overall, I would say it’s a tie and it really depends on your skill, sponge thickness and experience. As I said before - YMMV.


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 08:16 
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Great comparison! I found it to be the other way around in the speed, spin and chopping department, but I tested P1-R & P4 in 1.5mm.

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 09:25 
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Great post notfound123, very useful comparison! :up: :rock: :rock:

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 10:10 
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Great post and comparison notfound123. 'LP pushing into opponent’s deep FH' deadly isn't it? I also find a similar push/flick deep to the BH is also very effective in either winning me a point outright or setting me up for my FH attack when it seldomly comes back as it gets netted most of the time on return :D


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 12:28 
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Lorre wrote:
Great comparison! I found it to be the other way around in the speed, spin and chopping department, but I tested P1-R & P4 in 1.5mm.


I can understand spin and chopping preferences but are you saying that P4 is faster?? I think a premade racket w/ worn out srivers would be bouncier :D


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 12:31 
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TTbuddy wrote:
Great post and comparison notfound123. 'LP pushing into opponent’s deep FH' deadly isn't it? I also find a similar push/flick deep to the BH is also very effective in either winning me a point outright or setting me up for my FH attack when it seldomly comes back as it gets netted most of the time on return :D

Yeah, most people expect a bh-bh exchange... love this shot. Many times it’s an ace too


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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 23:03 
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notfound123 wrote:
I can understand spin and chopping preferences but are you saying that P4 is faster?? I think a premade racket w/ worn out srivers would be bouncier :D


I found it to be the case. P4 can be really slow on slow balls, but also fast on fast ones. That's IMO the biggest difference between Feint III and P4. P1-R is less extreme on both ends.

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PostPosted: 15 Dec 2017, 23:52 
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notfound123 wrote:
I can understand spin and chopping preferences but are you saying that P4 is faster?? I think a premade racket w/ worn out srivers would be bouncier :D

I remember lorre saying this to me in the past...but I found FL3 and P4 slower for sure when comparing the same thicknesses of sponge. Lorre, if I recall, you were comparing different sponge thickness, correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said, however, P-1R certainly isn't fast by any stretch.

I think for most people, this happens to them with grippy pips:
Since the grip is much higher in P4 and FL3 it causes a higher trajectory ball, or a float ball (or both) if your stroke isn't matching the spin of the ball speed-wise. This will cause the ball to sail long. Because it's sailing longer, the perception is that the rubber is faster, but really it's because there is less spin and/or higher trajectory.

P-1R has a bit more slippage, and therefore against a lot of spin, it's a bit more forgiving with regard to needing a lot of bat speed. P4 is more forgiving in the sense that it absorbs far more pace. So, depending on your needs or opponent, one can be "better" than the other. For me, P-1R is better against super spinny loopers. P4 is better against flat drivers, low spin players, and hitters. But like anything, all rubbers can be used against any style.

P-1R's top end is far higher, assuming you are playing spinny players, which at the higher levels you almost always are and I believe that's why most pro choppers use it. Shiono used P4 (Albient in 0.5mm) and I feel like his rallies tended to last a lot longer than most. Those that use 1.0mm FL3 and P4 tend to be classic choppers that vary a lot, and they want to put the breaks on big time (bilenko for example). Filus is the exception and he said he prefers it for the short game.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 02:59 
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Lorre wrote:
notfound123 wrote:
I can understand spin and chopping preferences but are you saying that P4 is faster?? I think a premade racket w/ worn out srivers would be bouncier :D


P1-R is less extreme on both ends.


I would agree that P1R is a very balanced all-around do-it-all grippy pip on a hard sponge. More of a classic.


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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 03:16 
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Japsican wrote:
P-1R's top end is far higher, assuming you are playing spinny players, which at the higher levels you almost always are and I believe that's why most pro choppers use it. Shiono used P4 (Albient in 0.5mm) and I feel like his rallies tended to last a lot longer than most. Those that use 1.0mm FL3 and P4 tend to be classic choppers that vary a lot, and they want to put the breaks on big time (bilenko for example). Filus is the exception and he said he prefers it for the short game.


Re: top end spin, I can say that my "measurements" were taken against a couple excellent loopers- one is my son's coach (easily 2200+) and the other is a friend of mine (1900-2000 on a good day). Both are spinny loopers who play with T05 on their forehands. And both reported that my 2nd, 3rd, etc chops were extremely heavy and difficult to lift. This is against me and my still very much "work in progress" technique. This is also using a very thin 0.5 sponge. if you move up in sponge thickness it is probably a completely different ball game.


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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 03:50 
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notfound123 wrote:
Japsican wrote:
P-1R's top end is far higher, assuming you are playing spinny players, which at the higher levels you almost always are and I believe that's why most pro choppers use it. Shiono used P4 (Albient in 0.5mm) and I feel like his rallies tended to last a lot longer than most. Those that use 1.0mm FL3 and P4 tend to be classic choppers that vary a lot, and they want to put the breaks on big time (bilenko for example). Filus is the exception and he said he prefers it for the short game.


Re: top end spin, I can say that my "measurements" were taken against a couple excellent loopers- one is my son's coach (easily 2200+) and the other is a friend of mine (1900-2000 on a good day). Both are spinny loopers who play with T05 on their forehands. And both reported that my 2nd, 3rd, etc chops were extremely heavy and difficult to lift. This is against me and my still very much "work in progress" technique. This is also using a very thin 0.5 sponge. if you move up in sponge thickness it is probably a completely different ball game.


I don't doubt you at all. I think you can create very heavy backspin against heavy loopers with any of the mentioned rubbers. I will say I think these rubbers are very different in 0.5mm vs. their thicker sponged versions in that regard. My comments are more in reference to 1.0mm or more...and I think in 1.0mm the top end is better for P-1R. In 0.5mm, there is less bite, and one can't *add* as much spin to incoming loops.

And it can't be understated that P-1R in 0.5mm on a Joo blade plays virtually like OX. And just like OX, the only spin you can send back to the looper is the same amount of spin he gave you. You can't really add to it...not much anyway.

With my bad technique, I am certainly better off with 0.5mm at my level, especially on a Defplay which has more dwell than a Joo and thus a little more grip.

As an aside, by "higher levels" I'm talking about pro-level loopers which is an enormous difference in level (and spin) from 2000 to 2200.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 04:12 
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Japsican wrote:
...
I don't doubt you at all. I think you can create very heavy backspin against heavy loopers with any of the mentioned rubbers. I will say I think these rubbers are very different in 0.5mm vs. their thicker sponged versions in that regard. My comments are more in reference to 1.0mm or more...and I think in 1.0mm the top end is better for P-1R. In 0.5mm, there is less bite, and one can't *add* as much spin to incoming loops.

And it can't be understated that P-1R in 0.5mm on a Joo blade plays virtually like OX. And just like OX, the only spin you can send back to the looper is the same amount of spin he gave you. You can't really add to it...not much anyway.

With my bad technique, I am certainly better off with 0.5mm at my level, especially on a Defplay which has more dwell than a Joo and thus a little more grip.

As an aside, by "higher levels" I'm talking about pro-level loopers which is an enormous difference in level (and spin) from 2000 to 2200.


To throw a wrench into this, I don't really get OX feel from P-1R(0.5)+Joo combo at all, at least compared to all OX stuff I ever used elsewhere. Feels much softer compared to Dornenglanz (I, II), Palio Ck531, Cloud&Fog III OX versions.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 04:27 
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pgpg wrote:
Japsican wrote:
...
I don't doubt you at all. I think you can create very heavy backspin against heavy loopers with any of the mentioned rubbers. I will say I think these rubbers are very different in 0.5mm vs. their thicker sponged versions in that regard. My comments are more in reference to 1.0mm or more...and I think in 1.0mm the top end is better for P-1R. In 0.5mm, there is less bite, and one can't *add* as much spin to incoming loops.

And it can't be understated that P-1R in 0.5mm on a Joo blade plays virtually like OX. And just like OX, the only spin you can send back to the looper is the same amount of spin he gave you. You can't really add to it...not much anyway.

With my bad technique, I am certainly better off with 0.5mm at my level, especially on a Defplay which has more dwell than a Joo and thus a little more grip.

As an aside, by "higher levels" I'm talking about pro-level loopers which is an enormous difference in level (and spin) from 2000 to 2200.


To throw a wrench into this, I don't really get OX feel from P-1R(0.5)+Joo combo at all, at least compared to all OX stuff I ever used elsewhere. Feels much softer compared to Dornenglanz (I, II), Palio Ck531, Cloud&Fog III OX versions.


Really? That's surprising...but you're comparing to other more slippery rubbers. What about OX P-1R? To me, it's just a little different than OX P-1R on the same blade.

Then I'd say OX on a Defplay feels like 0.5mm on a Joo blade.

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 06:21 
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Never tried P1-r OX...

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2017, 11:21 
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Japsican wrote:
Then I'd say OX on a Defplay feels like 0.5mm on a Joo blade.


I would agree with you here.
Never tried the defplay but it felt very very smooth on the VKM. Lots of control and dwell time on an 0.5.


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