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PostPosted: 31 May 2018, 02:02 
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Do you kind of get your strokes/hits mixed up a bit going from tennis to table tennis? I didn't find much cross-over between the two, and it was always easy to spot the 'tennis guy' coming in to play table tennis! How did you end up doing?

I thought the SP/Inverted attacking combo worked best for me... but since I haven't done it in so long, I was losing much more! In fact, when I went back to my chopping setup -- I was just whomping people left and right (11-4, 11-3, etc.) who can beat me most of the time using my other setup. I think the mix of very, very heavy top spin loops and deadballs/back spin causes many errors and uncertainty in them. I could just force them into pushing, and then forehand loop a push of my choosing to win the point outright generally. At this stage, objectively I'd have to say my playing is much better as a modern/classic defender rather than an all out attacker. Go figure!

That being the case, I tried working in twiddling the inverted onto my backhand... not too successful! You really need a lot of playing time/practice to get that down during a game. To go from LP chopping to twiddling and looping is doable, but has a lower % for me. I won more by continuing to chop on the backhand until a forehand opened up for me. Still, a surprise winner from the backhand did result in a point or two -- and many more lost by me!

I didn't struggle looping with the LP at all, and seemed to handle the spin well enough against most opponents. So I think swapping to the SP would probably be my preference. I'll try it out next time and note the difference.

On a positive note, my wrist hasn't flared up at all since resuming the backhand loops. Though I make a point of not doing too many in a row.

I kind of feel the same way as you, in that I'd like to use my defense "aggressively" by winning points with it. But I keep getting so many weak returns from chopping that I just have to put them away! Against a lot better players I'd probably be left chopping a whole lot more.

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PostPosted: 31 May 2018, 23:00 
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I have definitely found there to be a number of issues doing both sports. The differences in technique and strategy mean there's an adjustment period if I last played the other sport. An old shoulder injury from my pretennis days is sensitive to the changes in technique between both sports too. It's not a perfect setup for sure, playing both sports. If I wasn't so attached to both there's a good chance I'd have quit one of them by now. Table tennis affects my wrist and range a little in tennis (a good warmup fixes this, but still) and tennis I think affects my swings in table tennis. The last couple of years, the odd player has commented that its obvious I play tennis. I'm assuming my strokes look longer or something. I don't see it when I see old clips of myself playing, but I've played more tennis than table tennis in recent years, so perhaps my strokes have gotten longer because of that.

They help each other in some ways though. For example, because table tennis is considerably quicker, I think I benefit from being able to track the ball better in tennis and the extra court coverage in tennis possibly helps with my defense in table tennis.

Being honest though, I think, as I am now an experienced player in both sports, they clash more than they work together. That's my experience anyway. I think if you play one casually and one competitively they would work better. A guy I know gave up squash years back for this reason, despite being a good squash player.

There's a balance between what you enjoy doing the most and what ultimately wins you the most points (and against what level of player). If you're winning more points with a LP/inverted setup, logically that's the way to go. At the same time, we play for fun. If you prefer SP, or if you believe you've raised the ceiling on your potential, then that is the way to go. It just might take time. SP is definitely a lot harder to use for a defender than SPs, but it works. It sounds like you should go the SP route and stick with it, as you want to be aggressive off both wings, but LPs make that harder to do (unless possibly an attacking LP? But then there's still the issue of spin variation...). I also want to be aggressive off both wings, but I'm also trying to up my consistency against spin and pace. I can't really have both so I need to confirm really that I'm going the right way with FL3/P4. So far it's ticking enough boxes.

Twiddling, yea. I want to get that going too for the odd surprise topspin from my backhand wing. At 9-9 in the fifth, who knows, it could make the difference. One of my hitting partners told me a story of such a game where he was playing a defender who didn't hit a single attack in the entire match, and then at 9-9 in the fifth he hit two screamers to win the match lol. If I get the twiddle going, I might keep it for such occasions, when I really need the point. Not sure if I want to twiddle and chop though... I feel I'm just more likely to make an error than force an error.

I probably win more points overall through float and chop variations than I do attacks lol. Obviously though this depends on the opponent. Against weaker players, I get more hits in and against stronger players I'm chopping a lot more.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 10:05 
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*ramble

Well, at the lower pool of skill level and never getting close to world class or anything along those lines... I know a number of defenders 2000+ USATT who do chopping with inverted on both sides. So I think it's more than possible to do that sort of thing at the highest levels I'll be potentially competing against. And the concern there is if they "figure out" OX LPs, then I can be pinned on that wing quite easily with only a little bit of variation being available. But with SPs, I figure it will be easier to scale having some forgiveness compared to inverted, yet not the weakness of LP in generating spin. LP is very nice in serve return, since if I face a real tricky-spin player, I can essentially just chop everything back without too much issue. So long as I keep the ball low over the net, I can be ready for the 3rd ball.

I just think at and around my level, if I can put the ball back on the table, even if it's not a great shot... I can stay in the point, or the other player will kill themselves trying to attack those balls. They send so many LP chops back into the net or off the table, and usually just from being a no/low-spin shot of mine.You can see them get apprehensive and play more passively as the game goes on. Then I crank up my offense and start looping home winners.

Though as I said I have the multiple setups, so might just depend on the day!

On a side note, comparing yasaka rising dragon with rozena/tenergy -- in my experiences, the RD has a lower throw, lower speed and higher forgiveness on defensive shots. Swapping back and forth between the two, RD always has my loops going into the net initially, probably due to the weaker catapult. It's not slow by any means, and the spin is quite high, yet it does lack the punch of rozena (similar to H3, having deader sponges). Somewhat tacky top sheet -- my current sheet can pick up a ball for perhaps 1-2 seconds or so. I think RD is LESS forgiving on attacking shots though, especially away from the table. Since if you don't swing hard into the ball, then it won't go the proper distance or with much pace -- whereas the rozena will rocket the ball back with less effort required. At this point I think the rozena is better for me, having practiced with it so much more. But I also envision RD being better long term due to the forgiveness factor. So if you chop more than attack, then RD would be preferable -- though if you attack more often, then rozena/tenergy type might be more suitable. Spin wise... depends on technique a bit, but I think they're about equal.

If you wanted to try tenergy, but not drop the $$ on it -- I think the rozena is a damn good rubber, and truth be told... if butterfly had labelled it Tenergy 40 instead of rozena, nobody would be noting any differences! I've used all the tenergies myself, and the rozena is right up there with them in terms of spin/speed just slightly less, with more control.

My real problem is, I just try to play like the last person I watched on youtube :lol: whether it be watching Wu Yang chop or Michael Maze lob or some long pip attacker.

I agree on the tennis front! I've not played it seriously for a number of years, but the techniques and movement are different enough to be damaging to each other. For general movement/fitness they help each other, obviously. Since it's never bad to have more mobility or endurance etc. I knew a tennis player kid who came in to play table tennis... guy used a legit TWO HANDED swing! lol... he held two hands onto his blade for both forehand and backhand. Just basically slow looped back every ball from off the table, and by the "club ratings" (not usatt) he reached around 1800 before hitting his first wall. Pretty funny to watch. Didn't have much in the way of a short game, so he could be defeated there if most balls never went off the table.

I also did some pickle ball, which I felt was a better mix between the two -- or closer to table tennis, that is. My idea was to put some tt rubbers on a pickle ball paddle and really crank up the spin :lol:

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2018, 16:40 
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Agree on the tennis v TT differences
Having played tennis for many years before switching back to TT due to age :( I am struggling with looping on the FH due to an overly horizontal swing. It works fine for chopping, blocking and driving especially down the line but not for the classic TT diaganol loop and brush looping. So working hard at the moment on a much shorter down to up swing.
On the BH however the actions on both loops and chops seem more similar other than a shorter stroke with a little less arm and more wrist.


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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 18:45 
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ChasFox wrote:
Agree on the tennis v TT differences
Having played tennis for many years before switching back to TT due to age :( I am struggling with looping on the FH due to an overly horizontal swing. It works fine for chopping, blocking and driving especially down the line but not for the classic TT diaganol loop and brush looping. So working hard at the moment on a much shorter down to up swing.
On the BH however the actions on both loops and chops seem more similar other than a shorter stroke with a little less arm and more wrist.


I actually find all strokes rather different, but not different enough for them to not affect each other. The extra wrist in tt and the stability needed in tennis seem to really clash as well. I know what you mean about the more horizontal swing though. In tennis, you hit through the ball a lot more (so me playing with SPs for years probably reduced the effects a little), but you need to brush more in tt.

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Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 19:24 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
*ramble

Well, at the lower pool of skill level and never getting close to world class or anything along those lines... I know a number of defenders 2000+ USATT who do chopping with inverted on both sides. So I think it's more than possible to do that sort of thing at the highest levels I'll be potentially competing against. And the concern there is if they "figure out" OX LPs, then I can be pinned on that wing quite easily with only a little bit of variation being available. But with SPs, I figure it will be easier to scale having some forgiveness compared to inverted, yet not the weakness of LP in generating spin. LP is very nice in serve return, since if I face a real tricky-spin player, I can essentially just chop everything back without too much issue. So long as I keep the ball low over the net, I can be ready for the 3rd ball.

I just think at and around my level, if I can put the ball back on the table, even if it's not a great shot... I can stay in the point, or the other player will kill themselves trying to attack those balls. They send so many LP chops back into the net or off the table, and usually just from being a no/low-spin shot of mine.You can see them get apprehensive and play more passively as the game goes on. Then I crank up my offense and start looping home winners.

Though as I said I have the multiple setups, so might just depend on the day!

On a side note, comparing yasaka rising dragon with rozena/tenergy -- in my experiences, the RD has a lower throw, lower speed and higher forgiveness on defensive shots. Swapping back and forth between the two, RD always has my loops going into the net initially, probably due to the weaker catapult. It's not slow by any means, and the spin is quite high, yet it does lack the punch of rozena (similar to H3, having deader sponges). Somewhat tacky top sheet -- my current sheet can pick up a ball for perhaps 1-2 seconds or so. I think RD is LESS forgiving on attacking shots though, especially away from the table. Since if you don't swing hard into the ball, then it won't go the proper distance or with much pace -- whereas the rozena will rocket the ball back with less effort required. At this point I think the rozena is better for me, having practiced with it so much more. But I also envision RD being better long term due to the forgiveness factor. So if you chop more than attack, then RD would be preferable -- though if you attack more often, then rozena/tenergy type might be more suitable. Spin wise... depends on technique a bit, but I think they're about equal.

If you wanted to try tenergy, but not drop the $$ on it -- I think the rozena is a damn good rubber, and truth be told... if butterfly had labelled it Tenergy 40 instead of rozena, nobody would be noting any differences! I've used all the tenergies myself, and the rozena is right up there with them in terms of spin/speed just slightly less, with more control.

My real problem is, I just try to play like the last person I watched on youtube :lol: whether it be watching Wu Yang chop or Michael Maze lob or some long pip attacker.

I agree on the tennis front! I've not played it seriously for a number of years, but the techniques and movement are different enough to be damaging to each other. For general movement/fitness they help each other, obviously. Since it's never bad to have more mobility or endurance etc. I knew a tennis player kid who came in to play table tennis... guy used a legit TWO HANDED swing! lol... he held two hands onto his blade for both forehand and backhand. Just basically slow looped back every ball from off the table, and by the "club ratings" (not usatt) he reached around 1800 before hitting his first wall. Pretty funny to watch. Didn't have much in the way of a short game, so he could be defeated there if most balls never went off the table.

I also did some pickle ball, which I felt was a better mix between the two -- or closer to table tennis, that is. My idea was to put some tt rubbers on a pickle ball paddle and really crank up the spin :lol:


I haven't had anything to report lately, and have been busy with some tennis tournaments, hence my lack of input in this conversation. I haven't picked up a bat since my last post (or before, I can't remember). It's just been hard to arrange practices that fit my schedule, as I'm in the middle of trying to get some ranking points in tennis. Good job I'm off the circuit right now regarding table tennis, otherwise I'd be screwed.

While I'd agree LPs are easier to 'figure out', all pips are just not well rounded enough I don't think. A lot of research seems to go into reverse rubbers as there's a bigger market for them. I'd like to see more effort put into developing defensive equipment. I actually think reverse has less weaknesses, meaning you can do everything with them. They are less forgiving though for defending (though Joana Drinkhall, the British female chopper, uses Tenergy 05 on both sides to chop and hit, so it can be done). If you could learn to chop with reverse on both sides, your game with potentially have more dimensions. With defensive long pips, I think you're kind of forced into playing defensive shots with them a majority of the time, which is basically saying to the opponent 'hey, come get me'. The consistency of LPs though is really helps. As you say, keeping the ball on the table longer than your opponent is all you have to do to win, and LPs definitely helps with that at most levels. The variation between an offensive reverse forehand and a defensive LP backhand can be lethal for sure. I'd say SPs sit somewhere in the middle, but don't quite have the advantages of either. It gives you more dimensions than LPs, but not as many as reverse I don't think.

While I have been loving messing around with rubbers in table tennis, I don't look forward to the day where equipment becomes as diverse in tennis as it is in table tennis. At the start of a tennis match, I never go check out my opponents racket and strings, going 'ah, I see you have a Babolat Pure Aero Tour strung with Volkl Cyclone at 52lbs...' lol. With practice partners or coaches, yea, but not opponents. In tennis, the equipment adds or takes away a few percent to different areas of your game, but has little affect on your opponent outside of how well you play with it. Sure, you might get more spin with one setup or more accuracy with another, but on the receiving end it just feels like they are playing a little differently, basically better or worse. In table tennis, not checking out your opponents equipment before a match could spell trouble.

A two handed table tennis backhand lol. I've seen something like that somewhere on YouTube I think. Can't imagine that would work out in the long run, but it sure would be fun.

If I can't get a hold of a used sheet of Tenergy from somebody, I might try something like Rozena. Then again, I might get Tenergy lol. We'll see. Probbaly won't be for at least a couple of months though.

Quote:
My real problem is, I just try to play like the last person I watched on youtube :lol: whether it be watching Wu Yang chop or Michael Maze lob or some long pip attacker.


:D I get this. It's hard not to be inspired by the latest awesome player you've watched. I purposefully watch Federer points sometimes before tennis matches precisely for this reason :P . I've been doing something similar with tt too by watching my favourite defenders. If I watch too much Timo Boll I'm afraid I'll start subconsciously trying to play like him lol.

This is the first time I'm hearing about pickle ball. I looked at some videos and it looks like it could really fun to play, like a cross between badminton, tennis, and table tennis. Curious what affect tt rubbers would have on a pickle ball racket...

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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