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PostPosted: 30 Mar 2018, 23:14 
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I was a hardbat player from about 2004/5 to 2017. I am now using Friendship 802 1.5mm on my forehand, and I will probably increase the thickness in time and maybe even go to smooth rubber. I'm definitely benefiting though from the extra spin and power compared to what I'm used to.

Most great modern defenders use long pimples on their backhands, so I'm giving it a go to see what all the fuss is about. Coming from a hardbat background though (although I did use sponge before 2004), my defense is not so much a wall, as I don't intend on getting into long rallies. I usually float and chop and confuse opponents into giving me shots to put away with either my backhand or forehand. I wouldn't be able to do this so effectively with long pimples, at least not to my knowledge. However, the level of players I struggle with are strong enough to last more than a few shots against my defense and I find hardbat to not be that forgiving against such power and spin. Improved consistency then is what I need. I of course could just get better lol, but there is something to be said for using equipment that enhances your game. I mean, I wouldn't use an 85inch head on a tennis racket as there wouldn't be much forgiveness, even though it wouldn't be impossible to win with it. Why makes things harder for yourself?

I've currently got Feint Long II 1.1mm on my backhand, and I can't believe the level of control I have with it. It slows the ball down ridiculously well when chopping, making it easier to stay in rallies. Floating and heavy chopping though is something I haven't gotten the hang off yet though (I've only used it for a few sessions, so this might change with time), but I realize that this is where long pimples, even grippy ones, are weak next to short pips. Attacking, while easy with Feint Long II, isn't that effective yet for me. A change in technique is probably required.

I assume then my strategy on my backhand side will have to change. My defense will have to become more of a wall and my hit and variation will be down to my forehand side. I think this will at first lead to me struggling a little more with players I normally beat but it may help against players I struggle with.

As I'm not changing to long pips for the long pimple effect but rather its ability to absorb power when defending (I must still be able to send it back with a lot of backspin though, so dead rubbers are out of the question), I'm thinking I might prefer Feint Long III.

Basically, I'm confused right now. I am particularly curious to hear about experiences from former SP users switching to LP and vice versa.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 05:12 
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Blade: Innershield ZLF
FH: Chop-City!
BH: Curl P-4 OX
Feint long 3 with sponge is about as good as it gets for this kind of play. It has a very soft sponge, and takes off the pace extremely well. No passive reversal when blocking, slow when hitting, but you can generate your own spin.

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Tenergy 80 fx 1.7
Backhand: Curl p-4 OX


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 05:54 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Feint long 3 with sponge is about as good as it gets for this kind of play. It has a very soft sponge, and takes off the pace extremely well. No passive reversal when blocking, slow when hitting, but you can generate your own spin.

Feint Long III sounds like exactly what I want defensively. You say it's slow, how much slower than Feint Long II? Ideally I would still like to hit with it, but I guess I can learn to twiddle for that if I really have to.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 10:07 
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Blade: Innershield ZLF
FH: Chop-City!
BH: Curl P-4 OX
Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Feint long 3 with sponge is about as good as it gets for this kind of play. It has a very soft sponge, and takes off the pace extremely well. No passive reversal when blocking, slow when hitting, but you can generate your own spin.

Feint Long III sounds like exactly what I want defensively. You say it's slow, how much slower than Feint Long II? Ideally I would still like to hit with it, but I guess I can learn to twiddle for that if I really have to.


I've been using feint long 3 in .5 sponge, and it doesn't seem overly slow. If you do passive blocks, they'll be sitting ducks! So you need active strokes, and when doing that -- unless your placement is awful, you can easily do a hit now and then. You can still push a push with FL3 and return backspin. Or you can hit through the spin and return a dead/light top spin ball.

I had been using curl PH, which was much better for hitting... but it gave zero reversal when returning loops with a chop.

If you plan to chop most of the time on your BH, then FL3 is a great option. I don't think I'd go with 1.3 myself, but it depends on how you want to use it. Mushy sponge, that requires quite a bit of effort to get distance chop backs on the table. Maybe if you have a faster blade, it will work out.

Realistically, I think you have to be at a very high level (higher than most of us will ever get!) until a rubber becomes "too slow" for pick hitting. Get decent placement, surprise attack, etc. and fl3 will do fine. Again, I just want to highlight that FL3 is very bad for blocking at the table! The balls are slow, with no spin reversal and not overly easy to keep low. At best, you can block short with it.

Oh, and I've not used feint long 2 so I can't do an accurate comparison. FL2 is supposedly a more 'all-rounder' kind of pip, which I would assume means it has less grip. Whereas the FL3 is more specialized for chopping, and as such, loses some effectiveness at and over the table play.

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Tenergy 80 fx 1.7
Backhand: Curl p-4 OX


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PostPosted: 31 Mar 2018, 14:19 
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What's your preferred backhand stroke, and how far from the table do you want to be?

I play hardbat and sandpaper sometimes (more when getting ready for the Nationals), and have a 1674 hardbat rating. My strokes with hardbat, sandpaper, and LP ox are all pretty similar. Blocking, punch blocking, and chop blocking with a short stroke, close to the table. I've stuck with Viper ox for the past year, as its a soft pip that takes the pace off well, provides good reversal, and allows for good control.

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Main setup: Andro Fibercomp w/ Evolution Fx-P & Viper (ox)
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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 06:28 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Feint long 3 with sponge is about as good as it gets for this kind of play. It has a very soft sponge, and takes off the pace extremely well. No passive reversal when blocking, slow when hitting, but you can generate your own spin.

Feint Long III sounds like exactly what I want defensively. You say it's slow, how much slower than Feint Long II? Ideally I would still like to hit with it, but I guess I can learn to twiddle for that if I really have to.


I've been using feint long 3 in .5 sponge, and it doesn't seem overly slow. If you do passive blocks, they'll be sitting ducks! So you need active strokes, and when doing that -- unless your placement is awful, you can easily do a hit now and then. You can still push a push with FL3 and return backspin. Or you can hit through the spin and return a dead/light top spin ball.

I had been using curl PH, which was much better for hitting... but it gave zero reversal when returning loops with a chop.

If you plan to chop most of the time on your BH, then FL3 is a great option. I don't think I'd go with 1.3 myself, but it depends on how you want to use it. Mushy sponge, that requires quite a bit of effort to get distance chop backs on the table. Maybe if you have a faster blade, it will work out.

Realistically, I think you have to be at a very high level (higher than most of us will ever get!) until a rubber becomes "too slow" for pick hitting. Get decent placement, surprise attack, etc. and fl3 will do fine. Again, I just want to highlight that FL3 is very bad for blocking at the table! The balls are slow, with no spin reversal and not overly easy to keep low. At best, you can block short with it.

Oh, and I've not used feint long 2 so I can't do an accurate comparison. FL2 is supposedly a more 'all-rounder' kind of pip, which I would assume means it has less grip. Whereas the FL3 is more specialized for chopping, and as such, loses some effectiveness at and over the table play.


I have active strokes and play roughly 60/40 70/30 defense. I like to constantly vary the backspin I place on the ball and I'm always looking for the opportunity to end the point with my attack. I've gone through many games in the past where I've been able to get my attack in before my opponent and I haven't even had to use my defense.

I've been out of competition in table tennis since 2013, just playing the odd tournament here and there and have instead been focusing on tennis. However, I plan on getting back into table tennis this year. I played to a fairly decent level, and even recently, despite being rusty, I went undefeated in a tournament, while nothing grand, had some nationally ranked players in various age groups present. Some of the guys I plan on competing with will be ranked nationally. The point is the guys I plan on beating are pretty good and if I can't hit with force of my backhand side when it's there to be hit that could be trouble. In such a case, I would have to be extra active with my forehand.

I heard Curl P1 is great for spin reversal of active strokes but spin variation, like with Feint Long 2, isn't the best. I don't really want to be like Gionis Panagiotis and be a wall on my backhand, essentially getting into really long rallies on my backhand waiting to end it with my forehand. Though, if that's what I have to do to reach the next level that's what I will do. What I would prefer is to continue to have an active defense where I'm varying the spin on the ball but have the comfortable chopping that long pimples provide. This is where Feint Long 3 does sound rather good. It's just that people say it is very slow and isn't that hard for opponents to return when you hit with it. That makes me think I'll have to do a Ruwen Filus and twiddle for backhand hits.

As a chopper, when up against high level opponents, I find opportunities to hit are not that frequent, so you have to make the most of them when they present themselves. Still, it's about balancing pros and cons. The short pips I was using for years gave me a great balance between offense and defense, but they weren't forgiving enough when I went up against the next level. That's why defenders of all levels usually use long pips it seems.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 01 Apr 2018, 07:41, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 06:33 
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Punchblocker wrote:
What's your preferred backhand stroke, and how far from the table do you want to be?

I play hardbat and sandpaper sometimes (more when getting ready for the Nationals), and have a 1674 hardbat rating. My strokes with hardbat, sandpaper, and LP ox are all pretty similar. Blocking, punch blocking, and chop blocking with a short stroke, close to the table. I've stuck with Viper ox for the past year, as its a soft pip that takes the pace off well, provides good reversal, and allows for good control.


My backhand is fairly versatile both offensively and defensively. What I do with it depends on my opponent. Against the kind of opponent I struggle with, I won't get many opportunities to hit so I like to flick it/drive through the ball. It will usually be close to the table, say when I run in from a defensive position to end the point or when I hit their serve or early in the rally when I'm close to the table. On my forehand I can take it a bit further back f necessary, though again, the close I am to the table the better.

I only block when I don't have time to play a full shot, unless my opponent is far off the table and to one side, in which case one of my favourite shots is blocking to the other side.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2018, 19:02 
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My playing style varying greatly according to used equipment.
If you want to improve defensive skills it is good idea to change to defensive equipment.
Later you can switch back to equipment tuned to your main playing style.

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Andro Fibercomp Def: Tibhar Evolution MX-S 1.8; SpinLord Dornenglanz ox


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2018, 00:23 
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Blade: BBC Ghost
FH: TSP Spinpips RED
BH: Dr Neubauer Aggressor 0.6
I was a longtime BH LP player that recently switched to Dr Neubauer Aggressor OX. Could be the BH rubber you're looking for! My impressions on it can be found in this OOAK topic. Nothing offers the spin variation or frustrates the opponents that I encounter (USA 1600-2000) like Aggressor OX, and you'd pick it up in no time being an experienced hardbat player.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 03:57 
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Blade: Xiom Hayabusa Z+ FL
FH: Donic Bluefire M2 Max
BH: SpinLord Keiler Red 1.8
I haven't played with F II since we changed to the new bigger ball, so some of my experiences my not apply, but you should be able to almost counter against some loops (especially now that there is a little less spin on the ball.) Also F II doesn't load up the spin on the first chop as well as other pips like F III or P1R, but what it does do is allow you to add spin with each successive chop and if you get the technique down it should allow you to change spin. Over all it is a very versatile pip, sort of a jack of all trades. Play with your force at contact, racket speed at contact, and the racket angle a little and you should start to get the variation going.

Maybe some of the dedicated choppers here can steer you in the right direction to produce the variation you're looking for.

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PostPosted: 14 May 2018, 05:05 
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1dennistt wrote:
I haven't played with F II since we changed to the new bigger ball, so some of my experiences my not apply, but you should be able to almost counter against some loops (especially now that there is a little less spin on the ball.) Also F II doesn't load up the spin on the first chop as well as other pips like F III or P1R, but what it does do is allow you to add spin with each successive chop and if you get the technique down it should allow you to change spin. Over all it is a very versatile pip, sort of a jack of all trades. Play with your force at contact, racket speed at contact, and the racket angle a little and you should start to get the variation going.

Maybe some of the dedicated choppers here can steer you in the right direction to produce the variation you're looking for.


I've only just seen all the replies since my last post. Thanks all of you for your input!

After much thought (and going back and forth), I think I'm set on either Feint Long 3 or Curl P4 (ordered in 1.5mm for max variation, but I haven't received it yet so can't comment on this one). This reason is that they fall between LPs and SPs. They have the forgiveness of a LP with some of the spin variation of a SP. The problem with Feint Long 2 for me is that I can't generate sufficient variety within the first couple of shots. As a long time hardbat/SP user, I've built my game on variation as a way of winning points. As such, I'm not used to slowly adding spin to each chop with LPs like Feint Long 2 or Curl P1r. I'm looking to vary the spin from the first ball to the last. Now, I could adapt my game and I think in time I would play well with them. However, I see Feint Long 3 or Curl P4 as a way of retaining my current play style but benefiting somewhat from certain aspects of LPs.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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