OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Thicker sponge may indeed be the way to go for me (extra spin generation). The super soft sponge of these types of pips though makes me worried that they will be like pillows when hitting with thicker sponge. That said, my first hit with Feint Long III today didn't go quite how I imagined (I'll go into detail after this post).

Our different experiences with Dtechs and FL2 show why it's important to try things for yourself. Different styles/strokes make it difficult to pinpoint equipment that will work just by reading up on rubbers etc.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Couldn't agree more. Sometimes the difference is drastic.

I am very curious to read your thoughts on the FL3. And if ever you do get the chance to play FL2 in OX too.
Dtecs in the biggest sponge could be a shout too!

_________________
my youtube
http://www.youtube.com/ndragon88

My Vlog / Blog
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32572

Okay, this is my first impression of Feint Long III 1.1mm after my hit with it today (sorry for the long post).

Pros:
Super control
Heavy backspin (I could even do proper floats like with short pips)
Could play all the shots (from chops to drives/top spins) without much, if any, adjustment to my technique
Very short pip/defensive smooth rubber feel

Cons:
Slow, very slow

Compared to Dtechs:
Dtechs was still better for hitting, though because it has low grip the ball needs to be higher than the net. With FL3 it doesn't. FL3 is miles better for chopping though based on my first hit. It's more consistent and you can vary the spin incredibly well. Against a heavy looper though, Dtechs may be better as I imagine it would be less spin sensitive and the rubber would give nice reversal.

Compared to Feint Long II:
Similar control, though FL3 edges it. FL2 is maybe a little faster, and hits seem more troubling for your opponent than with FL3, but I preferred the feel of hitting with FL3 (more control/accuracy). When chopping, I didn't feel much control of the point with FL2, as my backspin seemed too dependent on my opponents spin. My practice partner was able to easily bring me in and out without worrying about missing (avoiding the buildup of spin). With FL3, I was able to control the point more when chopping, as varying the backspin made my practice partner more hesitant, giving me many opportunities to hit with my forehand. Again though, against a heavy looper, FL2, because of the better spin reversal, may be more troubling for the opponent.

Both Dtechs and FL2 both seem have better spin reversal, and this would be very useful against heavy top spin players. That said, having some control over the amount of backspin you put on the ball can be very effective in that you can end points more frequently without attacking (opponent misreading the spin, though the higher in the level you go the better they get at reading spin) and you can also setup your attack easier I find. It makes it harder for the attacker to get into a rhythm and blow you off the table, which is my worry using LPs (well, it's a worry regardless of equipment I guess lol).

My practice partner said after our session finished that lifting my backhand chop today was like lifting bricks. I did one chop that slowly went through air, hit my opponents side of the table, and then bounced back towards the net. Defensively, it's a great first impression.

It's very slow though, so against strong opposition I don't think I would be hitting with it that much. I would have to twiddle and use my forehand rubber to hit with my backhand. However, it's possible that it would be satisfactory against lesser attacking players. I will test this rubber against some more styles and we will see. Still, I see hitting with it as a major weakness at higher levels, and twiddling could put me in awkward positions (if I can't twiddle back in time) should my opponent return the ball with interest.

I've been trying to get a practice session with a strong, heavy spin attacker this past week. Hopefully I will get a session later this week. I will know more about how well this rubber works with my game then.

It will always be slow to hit with I think, even with thicker sponge or on a fast blade. If it wasn't slow though it wouldn't be as impressive when defending... If I was testing the rubber and I could do some kind of special order, I would want to try it with faster sponge to help up my attacks with it.

Early conclusion (but a lot more testing is needed):
Out of the three LPs I've tried, FL3 seems to have the most defensive potential at the moment for my game. I want to try Dtechs with thick sponge though (to help with applying my own chop)... It's worth a go (I'll also try FL2 in OX at some point).

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Nice post. Very detailed. I feel very involved as if it's me having your experiences also

I would so love to hear how you get on with Dtecs with the thickest sponge. Which is what 1.5 or 1.6?

_________________
my youtube
http://www.youtube.com/ndragon88

My Vlog / Blog
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32572

I think the thickest sponge for Dtechs is 1.6, yea. I'll definitely be giving it a go .

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Update on Feint Long 3

Okay, so I finally got to hit with this strong player I've been trying to get a session with. I knew he would put on a ton of pressure on my abilities, and he really did . I'm so impressed with what I was able to do with this rubber today that I think this may be the backhand rubber I'm after.

He hits with ridiculous spin and speed. His shots were difficult to control with my short pips on my forehand, so I had to be more aggressive on that wing. This led him to mostly play against my long pips. It was easier for both for us this way actually. This sounds bad for Feint Long 3, but it isn't. I had so much control chopping his heavy loops that I was okay with getting into rallies. This is a first for me, as I usually like to vary the spin so frequently that my opponent makes a lot of errors pretty early in the rally or they read what I'm doing and I'm forced to be more aggressive. I found Feint Long 3 to be very effective when I snapped down on the ball, applying as much backspin as I could, and then throwing in the odd float to confuse him. While I definitely got more backspin with my short pips, there was plenty on the ball with my long pips too (when the ball missed the table and hit the floor, it came back to the table). Today, this rubber made chopping against a player of his level a lot less stressful, as it slowed down the ball beautifully, absorbing his pace and allowing me to take big cuts and work the point to setup my forehand. I haven't enjoyed a table tennis game as much as this in years . Rallies are great fun.

Feint Long 3 so far seems like a great long pip to transition to after using short pips. I'll probably do a test in the coming weeks with Feint Long 2 and Dtechs against his shots and see what happens. I know already though which is easiest to play with, and that's Feint Long 3.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Nice! I think if you like FL3 that much you won't like FL2. But perhaps Dtecs with 1.6 look forward to next update

_________________
my youtube
http://www.youtube.com/ndragon88

My Vlog / Blog
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=32572

I just quickly want to add something else.

Most short pips I've used over the years are, shot for shot, a lot more effective than the long pips I've tried, as it's A LOT easier to force errors from your opponent. The problem is though that it's a lot easier to make mistakes with short pips when up against heavy hitters, as they seem to be harder to control. It's also easier for your opponent to hit through you it seems when you're using short pips (maybe because they have less disruption in terms of trajectory?). FL2 and FL3 appear to act as shields, which makes defending fun, but the extra control over spin variation with FL3 leads me to think that FL2 isn't what I'm looking for, but I will give it a proper test before I come to that decision. Dtechs created a noticeable wobble, and against the guy I played yesterday, the rubber may be deadly. Looking forward to doing more testing.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

Hi, I'm an anti player, but looking at going to pips.
Spinlord agenda 1mm is awsome if you.wanna keep that attacking rythum. It's good for chops away from table. I've an old nittaku combi blade, and with the agenda on the slower side it works a real treat. What I like is it's super for attacking. And mixing def/att. However it may play different on a slower blade.. worth a punt.

Thought I'd update this thread since went through a lot of rubbers since last post.

Tried dtechs 1.6. Cloud and Fog. Curl P4. Some other Chinese long pips such as Attack Long.

I've started to accept thst to get whsy I want I won't be able to attack with the 'potency' I'd like with my backhand without twiddling to inverted. With long pips anyway. That said, I have gotten a lot better at hitting with long pips.

Anyway, the two rubbers out of all these thst produced the hardest cuts have been Curl P4 1.5mm and Curl P1r 1.5mm. I'm waiting to try Stiga Horizontal 55 1.5mm soon, which I hope is a blend of the two.

P4 cuts vert heavy and borrows some degree of short pip variation possibilities, though the spin range is not as wide. But you can still float and chop with it, so very much a long pip for short pip or inverted choppers. Requires the ability to vary the spin yourself though. If you're using to just sending the ball back with a lower friction long pip you'll likely have a learning curve with P4 and will seem ineffective at first. Hitting with it is good actually after getting better at hitting with long pips. With enough force the ball bottoms out, hits the wood, and shoots off. But nothing weird about it so no freepoints at all. But have to have time / be in position to accelerate. Anything that's not a winner with this I've felt has a strong chance of coming back, unlike with inverted abd some other long pips.

P1r in 1. 5mm builds spin really quickly and only two people I've played since using it can, in a drill setting, go past 2-3 loops in a row on average. So a great rubber so far for forcing pushes to give you opportunity to attack. Also very stable and forgiving and can even spin dead balls, though not to the degree thst you can with Feint Long 3 and P4. Hitting is OK with it. Can force them to net the ball if you surprise them, controlled enough to place the ball well. But nothing spectacular. Overall maybe the best of the lot for me though.

Dtechs 1.6 was very good. Much faster than P4 and P1r and found it to be more effective at attacking and blocking. But felt had less options chopping with it. Think more of a preference thing maybe. Also might be a rubber I revisit.

Still debating over whether to return to short pips, but loving the forgiveness of long pips now and I've shortened the points again, some of it down to me getting better with them but also finding rubbers I could generate more chop with. But still, the wide spin range and all round possibilities with short pips is something I really miss, and perhaps need to determine if I really truly want to trade it for forgiveness. Thinking of trying SSPC2 sometime in the new year. Perhaps Spectol too. Likely in 1.8mm, both of them.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

I will look into Spinlord Agenda, thanks.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

For a long time I could not decide which of the two, p1 or p4, i should use... P4 was just like what you wrote, spinny and unforgiving, and p1 was more of an all-around. I compared the thinner sponge though. Because of the thin sponge P1 was 10-15% faster and was a bit less spinny (according to my coach). I've been playing w/the P4 for more than a year and before I played exclusively with the P1r.
I feel they are interchangeable and one would not give you better results than the other.

_________________
Attackers: "All pips players are cheaters who can't loop, move, or read spin"
Me: I beg your pardon?

everyone's different, but I played P4 and P-1 in 1mm, and I think that my results spiraled downward with P4. Kept trying to stick it out to no avail. Just seemed so unforgiving as NotFound mentioned. In 0.5mm, it was interchangable with P-1R in 1.0mm to me. About the same grippiness. But opponents had a far easier time with the P-4 (and my technique). I think P-1R borrows more spin than P-4, so if you rely on a little bit of reversal, p-1r is the way to go. If your are generating most of the spin with your stroke, then P-4. But again, it's all so subjective.

_________________
Blog: "Holy Chtchet!" ⇝

Projects: Player Equipment Grid ⇝ Comprehensive Thin Inverted Chopping Rubbers Grid ⇝ Please send me corrections or new submissions

Think the same could be said re that last line about a lot of long pips. Feint Long 3, Dtechs, P4, P1r, etc. It's not really about me ranking them and telling people on Ooak get this one over thst one. But they do all have their differences, and some will work better than others with the style you want to implement and your skill level/technique.

I will say Feint Long 3 and P4 might, if we think of it like a video game, have a higher level requirement to effectively use them. The others, even P1r, will give you more for less if your chopping isn't heavy and variable yet.

So, both in 1.5mm (P4 and P1r) I feel are not for the same style and provide options for different strategies. But maybe require only slight adjustments to transfer from one rubber to the other. P4 for variety of chop and P1r for aggressive buildup of chop. I think a skilled defender might win more points with P4 than P1r, but P1r will provide more opportunities to attack. So it balances out. I say this because the variety of chop you can get with P4 will end more points at the loop chop stage, whereas a skilled attacker will be more likely to understand the pattern of spin buildup with P1r and will as such push after however many loops he feels he can successfully make in a row, providing an opportunity to attack. That said, both are amazing chopping rubbers that can force errors from opponents and setup attacking opportunities at any level really.

I will say this though. Your style and shot selection can end up being affected/influenced by your equipment. I've noticed thst as I've gone through the different rubbers. So in a way it perhaps balances out one way or another, but if there's a specific way you want to play, then choosing the right equipment holds some extra importance in my opinion. Specifically, matching your temperament maybe to the playstyle best suited to it, and from there, suitable equipment.

So I want to play an aggressive defender game, something I'm realising is probably along the lines of Chen Weixing mixed with a bit of Ma Te and Joo, like chopping with forehand as well but ultimately looking to finish the point with my own attack. But I want to chop aggressively and be ready to attack aggressively. So with thst in mind Ive learnt I should stay clear of OX long pips, and long pips with little grip. I want to br able to generate a lot of backspin and have a pip that has enough grip for me to have at least some control over that, which also means keeping the sponge thickness highish for a long pip. This has led P1r and P4 in 1.5mm to be the best of the bunch so far for me. Which leads me to Horizontal 55 1.5mm, which would seem to merge the two, on paper. We'll see.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX

As I just wrote in previous message, P4, certainly in 1.5mm at least is for variety of chop. It has next to no reversal so you can't build up any noticeable spin. You have to create it. This can be the problem when using it, but if you can create your own spin it's a great thing, as can then send your opponent a lot of variations to force errors you wouldnt otherwise do with most other long pips.

I'd say P4 and Feint Long 3 have a real small target audience in honesty. Because even choppers who have the cut motion to make the most of P4 still generally either use short pips or a long pip like P1r. I'd say maybe because it doesn't quite excel at anything, almost like a mid pip. It's short pip like with variation of spin but the spin range is not as wide. It's long pip like with cushioning but not as forgiving as a lot of other long pips.

That said, I think P4 is excellent. My only real issue with it is the soft sponge. I'm hoping Horizontal 55 can fix thst but retain some of the manipulation possibilities of P4. As it's possible I'd take thst over P1r. We'll see.

_________________
Standard Setup 1
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P1r 1.5mm

Standard Setup 2
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - TSP Curl P4 1.5mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX