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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 06:54 
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This post is building on a previous post, but hopefully more focused with what I'm trying to say and what I need help with.

My style:
Aggressive defender who varies backspin from no spin to heave chop throughout the rally. Always looking to setup an attacking shot to finish the point with either my backhand or forehand. The type of rubber on my backhand will determine whether I can continue to use this strategy (though I will be able to continue to vary spin on my forehand chops).

What I want to improve:
I want to get to the next level, but I feel I need more forgiveness with my chopping on my backhand side so I can stay in the rally even against the most powerful hitters (have been using short pips for years). My spin variation troubles most players I meet, but the next level of player can stay in the rally longer, and I find their powerful offense outlasts my defense more often than I would like. This is why I'm experimenting with long pips, to stay in such rallies, as they are much more forgiving when defending. It's also worth noting that this level of player doesn't give me many opportunities to attack, so making it count when it's there to be hit is crucial.

Concerns about using long pips:
Reversal. I like to create my own variations of backspin and confuse opponents. I don't like that most long pips do the work for you and this gives me less variety, meaning the level of player I want to be beat may be able to hit all day against it. This is where, from what everyone has said, Feint Long 3 comes in. It sounds great for defense, but I'm concerned about its hitting ability. I would ideally like to hit off both wings when necessary without the need to twiddle like Ruwen Filus. That said, I understand everything is a compromise, so I may just have to learn to twiddle if I want the benefits of chopping with long pips.

With this information, which rubber would be best for my style and strategy? Do you think a defender benefits from the spin reversal and forgiveness of rubbers like Curl P1 more than the variety (but lack of forgiveness) of a short pip. Would Feint Long 3 be a good compromise? I want to decide within the next few months as I plan on getting back into table tennis competitively later this year and I want to concentrate on my game and not the rubbers (have mostly been absent from competition since 2013 to concentrate on my tennis).

Maybe a change of blade is necessary. I've been using a Marty Reisman 5ply Hock blade for years. It's got a big head and is great for chopping and hitting (it's also on the heavy side), but a modern defensive blade may be faster (thinking the Joo Sae Hyuk blade). It might help speed up long pips...

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FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 07:22 
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What you're asking for (and I think many of us have been there in one desire or another...) doesn't exist!

I think the best advice I've read on here concerning rubbers was something along the following: don't complain about what a pip doesn't do well, but instead pick one that does what you want -- learn it inside and out -- and you'll discover how to overcome it's weaknesses.

Is there a pip that generates spin, hits fast, and yet is slow and controlled when receiving balls to reduce the speed!?

Feint 3, curl p4, etc. with thick sponges are good at dampening the ball -- and as a result, they are slow rubbers. So you can't really ask for a pip that smacks and smashes fast, but somehow acts like a slow rubber when chopping. They're just on different ends of the spectrum. So you have to decide which area you use most, and pick a pip to suit that goal. Whether that be a specialized rubber or perhaps a more all-rounder pip, that's for you to decide.

It's a rather expensive journey to take... :D I've spent much more than I should have going through rubbers, and I still continue to do so! Though now I use different setups, instead of swapping them all out each time. You might consider doing that, if money provides.

It's like the blade threads where people ask what blade is good and slow for chopping, but is also excellent at smashing and blocking?

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 07:49 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
What you're asking for (and I think many of us have been there in one desire or another...) doesn't exist!

I think the best advice I've read on here concerning rubbers was something along the following: don't complain about what a pip doesn't do well, but instead pick one that does what you want -- learn it inside and out -- and you'll discover how to overcome it's weaknesses.

Is there a pip that generates spin, hits fast, and yet is slow and controlled when receiving balls to reduce the speed!?

Feint 3, curl p4, etc. with thick sponges are good at dampening the ball -- and as a result, they are slow rubbers. So you can't really ask for a pip that smacks and smashes fast, but somehow acts like a slow rubber when chopping. They're just on different ends of the spectrum. So you have to decide which area you use most, and pick a pip to suit that goal. Whether that be a specialized rubber or perhaps a more all-rounder pip, that's for you to decide.

It's a rather expensive journey to take... :D I've spent much more than I should have going through rubbers, and I still continue to do so! Though now I use different setups, instead of swapping them all out each time. You might consider doing that, if money provides.

It's like the blade threads where people ask what blade is good and slow for chopping, but is also excellent at smashing and blocking?


Yea, I see your point :).

A compromise is necessary here. For 80-90% of the players I will be up against, a short pip may be better, as it would provide a more all around balance. I can hit and defend well. The problem is that next level of player, the player who is better at reading what I'm doing and staying in the rally, forcing an error from my defense through consistent power hitting. I find short pips just too unforgiving in this situation, and I guess there's my answer. Granted, I don't come across many players that can do that, but it's the player I want to beat. To beat that player, I'm going to need to stay in the rally longer, which is where I've been think long pips may come in. But as you say, I'm going to have to sacrifice something, and it sounds like it will be my backhand attack, unless I get good at twiddling...

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Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

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Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 08:10 
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Spinpips chop 2 or spectol are popular short pops for choppers. I've tried those as well, but they're still very unforgiving compared to long pips. I tried medium pips as well, they proved to be a bad compromise. I use my pips the same way it sounds you like to.

Spin variation for chops and attacking loose balls or back spin balls. I think the feint 3 .5 works well. You can keep trying pops until you scale down to as grippy and fast as you can handle. Or experiment with something like d techs on a thick sponge. Depends how much spin variation you're after. Generally the higher you go the less frequently you attack with the chopping pips.

There are some all rounders like the Swede guy gustaf. He uses ox lp to chop and attack over the table,but not much spin variation when chopping due to the low grip.

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 08:53 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
Spinpips chop 2 or spectol are popular short pops for choppers. I've tried those as well, but they're still very unforgiving compared to long pips. I tried medium pips as well, they proved to be a bad compromise. I use my pips the same way it sounds you like to.

Spin variation for chops and attacking loose balls or back spin balls. I think the feint 3 .5 works well. You can keep trying pops until you scale down to as grippy and fast as you can handle. Or experiment with something like d techs on a thick sponge. Depends how much spin variation you're after. Generally the higher you go the less frequently you attack with the chopping pips.

There are some all rounders like the Swede guy gustaf. He uses ox lp to chop and attack over the table,but not much spin variation when chopping due to the low grip.


Thanks for your input.

Currently, I'm testing Feint Long 2 and while it has superb control, spin variation doesn't seem that great. My practice partner, who is a steady, but not particularly spinny attacker, has more trouble with my chops on my forehand side (short pips with 1.5mm sponge). It might be the other way around when up against someone with a lot of top spin though. Hitting is okay with it but nothing special. My forehand now has to do more of the work.

In the spin variation department, Feint Long 3 seems the way to go for a long pip. I've received some in 1.1mm sponge in the post so I will give it a go this week.

I tried Dtechs OX and I found it much better for hitting than Feint Long 2. Very good for hitting actually. Chopping though wasn't that great, as it had a weird throw angle (I guess due to it not being a grippy pip), often sending my chops back high and I felt totally reliant on my opponent giving me something to work with. Maybe with some sponge it would be better. I'll have to try it.

So basically you're saying the less grip the better for hitting and the more grip the better for chopping?

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Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 08:59 
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Out of curiosity, what's your playing level, rating etc.?

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 09:17 
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As an aggressive defender coming from SP I would have thought that a more attacking LP with some grip would be the place to start.


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 10:19 
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The less grip, the harder it is to hit! Since balls will float long etc. And you can't really attack top spin with them. The more grip it has the easier it is to attack, when talking about no spin and top spin balls, as low grip pips can hit through back spin much easier.

But the more grip the pip has, the less trouble it gives your opponent. Like with feint 3, hitting has very little disruptive quality. Whereas if you hit with d techs, it's harder to do, but harder for most people to return.

And low grip pips are easy to chop with as they ignore incoming spin better, the downside is you can't put spin on the ball yourself.

It sounds like you want an lp as close to short pips as possible. Fl3 is probably right at the limit unless you want to try mp.

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 10:54 
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pgpg wrote:
Out of curiosity, what's your playing level, rating etc.?


I've never played in the US so I don't really know how the ratings work there.

In Europe, at my best, I am a city level player and have taken sets off national level players. I even had a world ranking at one point, but it sounds a lot better than it is. Right now, I'm not really sure as I'm very rusty. This means it's a great time to experiment though as I don't have decent form to lose :).

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 01 Apr 2018, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 11:01 
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Dusty054 wrote:
As an aggressive defender coming from SP I would have thought that a more attacking LP with some grip would be the place to start.


The problem with attacking LPs is that they likely have the same problem as short pimples (not very forgiving when defending). I'm thinking I need something to keep me in rallies against very strong attackers who can handle my first few chops with varied spin. The problem is, I want to stay in the rallies so I can eventually be aggressive and finish the point. I'm not a natural defender in that I don't want to get into 20 shot rallies if I can help it. My defense is really there to give me time to setup my offense, if that makes sense. My defense itself is a kind of offense, in that I tend to win a lot of points through variation of backspin.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Last edited by Snowman89 on 01 Apr 2018, 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 11:08 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
The less grip, the harder it is to hit! Since balls will float long etc. And you can't really attack top spin with them. The more grip it has the easier it is to attack, when talking about no spin and top spin balls, as low grip pips can hit through back spin much easier.

But the more grip the pip has, the less trouble it gives your opponent. Like with feint 3, hitting has very little disruptive quality. Whereas if you hit with d techs, it's harder to do, but harder for most people to return.

And low grip pips are easy to chop with as they ignore incoming spin better, the downside is you can't put spin on the ball yourself.

It sounds like you want an lp as close to short pips as possible. Fl3 is probably right at the limit unless you want to try mp.


Is there a grippy fast long pimple? I understand that grippy means it will be easier to apply spin and hit, but the grippy long pips I know about are on the slow side. This of course means they are good for defending.

I stayed too long with OX short pips I think. I keep wanting the best of both worlds, the defensive abilities of a long pip and the attacking abilities of a short pip. I won't get that, I know. It's such a difficult decision. Something has got to give, either my backhand attack or my defense.

I suspect, judging from what people have said here and my own research, that Feint Long 3 may be the way to go. It sounds perfect for my defensive game, but I'm not keen on twiddling every time I want to hit on my backhand. Still, I'll keep trying other pips where possible.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 11:23 
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Snowman89 wrote:
Dusty054 wrote:
As an aggressive defender coming from SP I would have thought that a more attacking LP with some grip would be the place to start.


The problem with attacking LPs is that they likely have the same problem as short pimples (not very forgiving when defending). I'm thinking I need something to keep me in rallies against very strong attackers who can handle my first few chops with varied spin. The problem is, I want to stay in the rallies so I can eventually be aggressive and finish the point. I'm not a natural defender in that I don't want to get into 20 shot rallies if I can help it. My defense is really there to give me time to setup my offense, if that makes sense. My defense itself is a kind of offense, in that I tend to win a lot of points through variation of backspin.


Fair enough, though I would not rule out trying some LP's that are known for their offensive potential. You might find that you have no control issues while defending. For example, my BH is extremely defensive, but I can control Feint AG without problems. It's just that it's wasted on me since I have very poor BH attack skills.


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 11:42 
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Dusty054 wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
Dusty054 wrote:
As an aggressive defender coming from SP I would have thought that a more attacking LP with some grip would be the place to start.


The problem with attacking LPs is that they likely have the same problem as short pimples (not very forgiving when defending). I'm thinking I need something to keep me in rallies against very strong attackers who can handle my first few chops with varied spin. The problem is, I want to stay in the rallies so I can eventually be aggressive and finish the point. I'm not a natural defender in that I don't want to get into 20 shot rallies if I can help it. My defense is really there to give me time to setup my offense, if that makes sense. My defense itself is a kind of offense, in that I tend to win a lot of points through variation of backspin.


Fair enough, though I would not rule out trying some LP's that are known for their offensive potential. You might find that you have no control issues while defending. For example, my BH is extremely defensive, but I can control Feint AG without problems. It's just that it's wasted on me since I have very poor BH attack skills.


You're right, I shouldn't dismiss attacking long pips before at least experiencing what they are like. There are too many options in this sport... I'll try Feint Long III next though, as I've just received a sheet of that. I'll then see if I can get my hands on something more offense oriented and see how it goes. Might help me figure out what I truly need from a backhand rubber.

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Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 15:57 
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How many points are you actually winning by "hitting" with the LP, or planning to? Even Joo at the top level still scores points now and again with a good ol' long pip smack attack. But I doubt he loses sleep trying to find a pip he can hit better with -- when he plans on chopping 99% of the time!

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PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 16:31 
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Do you mainly only chop on b/h against top spin or do you also block. If perhaps both a medium pip such as Aggressor in thin sponge or even Ox may work - see recent thread on this rubber. Millital 2 may also give you what you are after. Medium pip fast blocks against top spin can be very awkward to return compared to SP blocks due to low bounce.

Did you say you used ox short pipe on the bh? Perhaps another option is to use a chopping short pip with around 1.5mm sponge such as Spectol or Degu 2, the sponge should give more control as well as more back spin against hard loops as the sponge will grip the ball.

Also if you have the time Def-attack's journey from MP to LP and now back may be a useful read


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