OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 20 Oct 2018, 07:16


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 01 Apr 2018, 23:53 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
skilless_slapper wrote:
How many points are you actually winning by "hitting" with the LP, or planning to? Even Joo at the top level still scores points now and again with a good ol' long pip smack attack. But I doubt he loses sleep trying to find a pip he can hit better with -- when he plans on chopping 99% of the time!


To answer your question, at higher levels, I won't be winning many points with backhand attacks regardless of what rubber I choose (as I'll be mostly defending). My forehand attack will be more important against such players because of the extra reach and power.

I think why I'm so focused on being able to hit of the backhand is that I still want to end points quickly against players who aren't strong enough to keep me back. My backhand is arguably more effective against such players, as I have good control and accuracy of that wing.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 


Don't want to see this advertisement? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!

PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 00:17 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
ChasFox wrote:
Do you mainly only chop on b/h against top spin or do you also block. If perhaps both a medium pip such as Aggressor in thin sponge or even Ox may work - see recent thread on this rubber. Millital 2 may also give you what you are after. Medium pip fast blocks against top spin can be very awkward to return compared to SP blocks due to low bounce.

Did you say you used ox short pipe on the bh? Perhaps another option is to use a chopping short pip with around 1.5mm sponge such as Spectol or Degu 2, the sponge should give more control as well as more back spin against hard loops as the sponge will grip the ball.

Also if you have the time Def-attack's journey from MP to LP and now back may be a useful read


I learned an all-round game, to adapt my strategy to my opponent so to speak. I chop, block, and hit of my backhand. The ratio is more towards chopping though. My nature is to stand back when I'm in trouble, so equipment that helps me to defend well is important. Dr. Neubauer Aggressor looks interesting, but TSP Spectol stands out from the ones you've mentioned (based on some quick, no so thorough research).

Yes, I used short pips OX on both sides for years and I was fairly successful with it. Against players with a decent offense or even defensive players, I found the short pips great, as I had many options. I could counter hit, pick it, and go back and chop most balls. The problem was the lack of forgiveness when defending against consistent, powerful, high spin players who can read chop and know how to play defensive players (therefore not giving you many opportunities to hit).

When I watch world class defenders, I'm amazed by how well they get back powerful hits by chopping the hell out of the ball with their LPs. However, what I don't like is that most of them can only hit with their forehand. This is why I'm confused about what rubbers to use on my backhand.

I'm going to do some more research on TSP Spectol and Aggressor (and Feint AG).

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 01:30 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 22 Feb 2017, 04:18
Posts: 281
Location: Wakefield UK
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 41 times
Blade: TSP BB 4.0
FH: Aurus Select 1.9
BH: Keiler 1.2
The probable reason why most long pip players at the top level only chop and rarely attack is that they instinctively fall back so far from the table that they would not have enough power on the bh to attack.

Mikhailova Polina is an interesting player in that she both chops on the bh with short pips and then has a lethal attack on anything short with a very fast wrist flick action. See her videos in the pips section


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 02:55 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
ChasFox wrote:
The probable reason why most long pip players at the top level only chop and rarely attack is that they instinctively fall back so far from the table that they would not have enough power on the bh to attack.

Mikhailova Polina is an interesting player in that she both chops on the bh with short pips and then has a lethal attack on anything short with a very fast wrist flick action. See her videos in the pips section


Thanks for that :). Never heard of her before (she has a nice style). Did a quick google search and it appears she uses Butterfly Challenger Attack. I used to use Challenger Chop at one point and it was a nice rubber for sure.

I'm currently using Friendship 802 1.5mm on my forehand and it is more forgiving than the short pips OX I was using (Yasaka Cobalt Alpha), but I'm not sure if it would be something I'd like to use on my backhand. Perhaps when I transition to a faster, spinnier rubber on my forehand (possible smooth rubber), something like it on my backhand would be good. I can definitely both chop and hit well with it on my forehand. Still, there's something about the idea of long pips acting as a shield on the backhand that I feel could help my game. I can feel the difference in defensive ability (as in getting the ball back on the table) with my Feint Long II at the moment, but there's so many factors to consider.

Pros and cons... I think this was part of the appeal of using the same short pip OX on both sides originally. It takes out the stress of finding the right equipment and I could instead focus on my game.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 03:28 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 24 Apr 2011, 11:24
Posts: 507
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 128 times
Blade: Innershield ZLF
FH: Chop-City!
BH: Curl P-4 OX
Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
How many points are you actually winning by "hitting" with the LP, or planning to? Even Joo at the top level still scores points now and again with a good ol' long pip smack attack. But I doubt he loses sleep trying to find a pip he can hit better with -- when he plans on chopping 99% of the time!


To answer your question, at higher levels, I won't be winning many points with backhand attacks regardless of what rubber I choose (as I'll be mostly defending). My forehand attack will be more important against such players because of the extra reach and power.

I think why I'm so focused on being able to hit of the backhand is that I still want to end points quickly against players who aren't strong enough to keep me back. My backhand is arguably more effective against such players, as I have good control and accuracy of that wing.


I had the same problem too as many junk users have. Against lesser skilled people you wonder why not just use inverted or short pips and smack the hell out of the ball!? Or spin it up on them since they don't generate much too spin, the grippy rubbers will work fine for chopping.

But then you face higher players and those rubbers become a liability! Same thing when I use frictionless anti. Players who do paddy cake shots don't give me much to work with, so I don't find the anti all that useful.

_________________
Innershield zlf
Tenergy 80 fx 1.7
Backhand: Curl p-4 OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 04:32 
Online
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2013, 00:48
Posts: 1363
Location: Boston
Has thanked: 468 times
Been thanked: 313 times
Blade: Dr. Neubauer Barricade
FH: Palio AK47 Blue
BH: Air UpUpUp 0.6mm
You might want to try OX LP on your BH - you can be pretty aggressive with it close to the table, while still being able to chop very well.

I'd check videos of folks like Sun Jian Fei, Jian Li (my personal favorite), Ronel Davidov, Gustaf Ericson etc. to get a taste of the variety of styles it can support.

_________________
USATT: 1776| League: 1964


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 04:45 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
skilless_slapper wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
How many points are you actually winning by "hitting" with the LP, or planning to? Even Joo at the top level still scores points now and again with a good ol' long pip smack attack. But I doubt he loses sleep trying to find a pip he can hit better with -- when he plans on chopping 99% of the time!


To answer your question, at higher levels, I won't be winning many points with backhand attacks regardless of what rubber I choose (as I'll be mostly defending). My forehand attack will be more important against such players because of the extra reach and power.

I think why I'm so focused on being able to hit of the backhand is that I still want to end points quickly against players who aren't strong enough to keep me back. My backhand is arguably more effective against such players, as I have good control and accuracy of that wing.


I had the same problem too as many junk users have. Against lesser skilled people you wonder why not just use inverted or short pips and smack the hell out of the ball!? Or spin it up on them since they don't generate much too spin, the grippy rubbers will work fine for chopping.

But then you face higher players and those rubbers become a liability! Same thing when I use frictionless anti. Players who do paddy cake shots don't give me much to work with, so I don't find the anti all that useful.


That's the problem, finding a balance in your equipment that will let you play well against different styles/levels. The type of equipment I may need to beat the higher level guys might end up working against me when playing against guys who can't do as much.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 04:51 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
pgpg wrote:
You might want to try OX LP on your BH - you can be pretty aggressive with it close to the table, while still being able to chop very well.

I'd check videos of folks like Sun Jian Fei, Jian Li (my personal favorite), Ronel Davidov, Gustaf Ericson etc. to get a taste of the variety of styles it can support.


I tried Dtechs OX and it was fantastic for hitting. Every shot almost I hit was a winner against my practice partner. I can hit more consistently with Feint Long 2 1.1mm but it's slow and not particularly effective it seems. Dtechs wasn't as great at defending though I found (high arc and not that consistent), and a flat hitter would probably hit me off the table. A heavy looper? It could work.

I just looked at your personal favourite (Li Jian) on YouTube. He's great to watch :). He supposedly uses Cloud And Fog III OX but I can't find it where I am. If I could have something with grip (for chop variation) in OX that I can chop well and hit with, that would be worth trying. But then again, I would want the grip for spin variation, but having LP in OX would hinder spin variation...

Any OX long pip suggestions?

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 07:26 
Offline
Super User
User avatar

Joined: 08 Jul 2017, 11:04
Posts: 356
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 68 times
Been thanked: 94 times
Blade: S&T Black & White
FH: Armstrong SH-I 1.8
BH: TSP Curl P3 Alpha R OX
Snowman89 wrote:
Any OX long pip suggestions?


Giant Dragon Cropcircles has a rep for being very good for both attacking and chopping.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 12:08 
Online
OOAK Super User
OOAK Super User
User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2013, 00:48
Posts: 1363
Location: Boston
Has thanked: 468 times
Been thanked: 313 times
Blade: Dr. Neubauer Barricade
FH: Palio AK47 Blue
BH: Air UpUpUp 0.6mm
Snowman89 wrote:
...

I tried Dtechs OX and it was fantastic for hitting. Every shot almost I hit was a winner against my practice partner. I can hit more consistently with Feint Long 2 1.1mm but it's slow and not particularly effective it seems. Dtechs wasn't as great at defending though I found (high arc and not that consistent), and a flat hitter would probably hit me off the table. A heavy looper? It could work.

I just looked at your personal favourite (Li Jian) on YouTube. He's great to watch :). He supposedly uses Cloud And Fog III OX but I can't find it where I am. If I could have something with grip (for chop variation) in OX that I can chop well and hit with, that would be worth trying. But then again, I would want the grip for spin variation, but having LP in OX would hinder spin variation...

Any OX long pip suggestions?


My main OX experience is with Dornenglanz, Cloud & Fog III (copying Jian Li :rofl: ), Scylla, and a bit of Dtecs.

Dornenglanz is not that grippy, and neither are the rest, I think, but I'm not that good at judging this in general. I also played a bit with Curl P1-r in 0.5mm, and I thought it was softer and grippier, and so is P-4 which I only tried in 1.3mm - may be try those, OX or otherwise?

My game is not really that focused on chopping lately, despite me actually liking chops the most, plus it looks like you are above me in level, so advising you on equipment is a bit weird. I had to order C&F from ttnpp.com too, IIRC, so its availability is not that different here - also it looks like it's missing from the most recent LARC ;(

_________________
USATT: 1776| League: 1964


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 20:11 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Dusty054 wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
Any OX long pip suggestions?


Giant Dragon Cropcircles has a rep for being very good for both attacking and chopping.


Thanks, I'l look into that one.

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2018, 20:31 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
pgpg wrote:
Snowman89 wrote:
...

I tried Dtechs OX and it was fantastic for hitting. Every shot almost I hit was a winner against my practice partner. I can hit more consistently with Feint Long 2 1.1mm but it's slow and not particularly effective it seems. Dtechs wasn't as great at defending though I found (high arc and not that consistent), and a flat hitter would probably hit me off the table. A heavy looper? It could work.

I just looked at your personal favourite (Li Jian) on YouTube. He's great to watch :). He supposedly uses Cloud And Fog III OX but I can't find it where I am. If I could have something with grip (for chop variation) in OX that I can chop well and hit with, that would be worth trying. But then again, I would want the grip for spin variation, but having LP in OX would hinder spin variation...

Any OX long pip suggestions?


My main OX experience is with Dornenglanz, Cloud & Fog III (copying Jian Li :rofl: ), Scylla, and a bit of Dtecs.

Dornenglanz is not that grippy, and neither are the rest, I think, but I'm not that good at judging this in general. I also played a bit with Curl P1-r in 0.5mm, and I thought it was softer and grippier, and so is P-4 which I only tried in 1.3mm - may be try those, OX or otherwise?

My game is not really that focused on chopping lately, despite me actually liking chops the most, plus it looks like you are above me in level, so advising you on equipment is a bit weird. I had to order C&F from ttnpp.com too, IIRC, so its availability is not that different here - also it looks like it's missing from the most recent LARC ;(


Putting everything together, sponge underneath LPs will help with spin variation but may hinder attacking possibilities and decent grip for spin variation may be pointless in OX... So I either go for something with less grip in OX (but may have better offense/defense balance, like I found with Dtechs OX) and put aside spin variation or use a higher grip LP in sponge (more defense based, like Feint Long II & III). Or I go back to short pips and experiment with some of the ones mentioned.

Before late last year, I hadn't experimented with different types of rubbers since 2004/5 (only tried different SPs). I had never previously tried LPs until recently either, so I'm a LP noob. As such, advice from players like you who have used and tried various LPs is valuable to me.

The names that keep popping up over and over again on this forum, on the pro tour, and in my research are Dtechs, Feint Long II/III, and Curl P1/P4, which is why I've been so focused on those.

Maybe if I don't like Feint Long III 1.1mm after I've tried it I'll rip off the sponge and see what it's like in OX. Putting OX Feint Long III (grip) and OX Dtechs (not so much grip) side by side might help me figure out what works and what doesn't. Then I can go experimenting with similar rubbers to whichever works out best (thanks to you guys I have some names of different rubbers now).

I used Reisman short pips for a while years back, but to keep their ITTF approval they had to continue to pay the ITTF. They stopped paying, so the rubber was then no longer ITTF approved and I was forced to change. I really liked the rubber as well. It didn't have groves on top of the pimples and they were instead sand blasted, so it was certainly interesting to play with. Since then I'll admit that I'm hesitant to try rubbers from companies that aren't Butterly, TSP etc., as I'm worried that if I like them they may not be legal for as long as I would like. Smaller profits may lead to the rubber losing its ITTF approval sooner than competing rubbers made by bigger companies. There's the other side to the coin though in that you want to support smaller companies that make good products...

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 00:43 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 24 Apr 2011, 11:24
Posts: 507
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 128 times
Blade: Innershield ZLF
FH: Chop-City!
BH: Curl P-4 OX
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=31917

This girl uses curl p1r in OX, and she plays a blocking/hitting game with them. Many people also use curl p1r to chop with in OX.

I've tried it in OX and didn't find it particularly spinny, especially in comparison even to my feint 3 in .5 sponge.

I think joola octopus with the .6 sponge is also good. It has enough grip to hit and still bends well when chopping to send back lots of spin. Same thing with Donic spike p2. These are all basically competitors of each other, and as a result, play similarly to one another with some differences here and there.

Cloud and Fog 3 is also a cheap alternative. It's decently grippy and not very expensive to try out.

_________________
Innershield zlf
Tenergy 80 fx 1.7
Backhand: Curl p-4 OX


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 03:20 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 19 Jan 2018, 05:51
Posts: 190
Location: UK
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 21 times
Blade: VKM
FH: Stiga Mantra S
BH: Dtecs OX
I'm gonna throw this out there and see if anyone can also shed some light.

Curl P1r or FL3 with a big sponge like 1.5 or more maybe even 2.0! Apparently Chen Weixing uses 2.0 or 2.2 sponge specially made for him though. I'm sure they would be close to the short pips with variants of spin while being safer and easier AND able to attack just as good maybe ever so slightly worse. So essentially the trade off would be slightbut enough.

Its funny coz you actually have the opposite problem to me with Dtecs OX compared to FL2. I just switched coz I found my chops too often going high but with the Dtecs they stay low.

_________________
my youtube www.youtube.com/ndragon88


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 06:01 
Offline
Senior member

Joined: 17 Mar 2013, 08:08
Posts: 127
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 20 times
skilless_slapper wrote:
http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=31917

This girl uses curl p1r in OX, and she plays a blocking/hitting game with them. Many people also use curl p1r to chop with in OX.

I've tried it in OX and didn't find it particularly spinny, especially in comparison even to my feint 3 in .5 sponge.

I think joola octopus with the .6 sponge is also good. It has enough grip to hit and still bends well when chopping to send back lots of spin. Same thing with Donic spike p2. These are all basically competitors of each other, and as a result, play similarly to one another with some differences here and there.

Cloud and Fog 3 is also a cheap alternative. It's decently grippy and not very expensive to try out.


Many thanks for linking that video! It's interesting to watch someone use long pimples with such aggressive play.

I tried Feint Long III today, which I will talk about in a sec, and I'm now pretty sure Feint Long II 1.1mm is not for me at all. If it ends up stacked among the rubbers I don't use I'll try and remove the sponge and see how it plays in OX. As you say, there are types of rubbers and different brands have competitors for each type. I think Curl P1 and Feint Long II are pretty much the same type, from what I've read (but with some differences). It would give me an idea as to whether I like that kind of setup.

I actually searched for Cloud and Fog and it was pretty hard to find where I am (and over priced too when I did find it, compared to the US).

_________________
Standard Equipment
Blade - Joo Sae-Hyuk ST
FH - DHS Hurricane 3 Neo 2.2mm
BH - Butterfly Feint Long III 1.1mm

Hardbat Equipment (Former Full-Time Hardbat Player)
Blade - Marty Reisman custom 5 ply Hock
Rubber - Yasaka Cobalt Alpha OX


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2018 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: