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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 05:53 
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So as not to hijack the previous thread, I want to open the discussion here on the subject of what appears to be a disagreement between me and another forum member over whether LP with sponge can "generate" spin.

Let's clarify some terms and context.

By "generate spin" I mean impart significant rotation on the ball to the extent that we overcome the spin that is on the ball we receive. We can obviously do this with an inverted rubber - to varying degrees. I can loop a very heavy chop, and the ball will have significant arc on it, and kick off with topspin. If the opponent doesn't play the ball and we watch it, it will be fizzing with topspin.

I also mean impart significant rotation on a ball with little or no spin. For example, on serve. Again, obviously we can do this with an inverted rubber. I can serve the ball and easily impart enough spin to make it jump back towards the net or over the net backwards. Similarly, I can flick or push a no spin ball, and it will have a massive amount of spin on it.

To a lesser extent, but still to an extent, I can do this with short pimples (regardless of whether they have sponge). I've played for the last few months with Dr Evil. I can generate a reasonable amount of spin on serve, and apply a surprising amount of spin in a loop/counterloop, or against a heavy push. Obviously much less than with inverted, but I can generate spin. When I use my regular SP rubber, I can generate enough spin on a serve to make the ball go back over the net, and to arc over the net. Certainly much less than with inverted, but I can, unquestionably, generate spin.

Now let's consider P1-r, with, say, 1.0mm of sponge. Or even FL3. By way of experiment, I asked one of my friends (a top 500 world-ranked player) to serve as heavily as he could with Spike P2. The ball had very very little spin on it. I needed almost no bat angle to get the ball back over the net. This is with a stationery ball, with complete control, and exceptional technique. Similarly, although obviously at a much lower level, I've played with LP on by BH (and sometimes on my FH, twiddled) for about five years. I sometimes attack with them, and it's certainly easier to attack with some sponge, especially against no-spin balls, but in no way am I *generating* significant spin with sponged LP. A world-ranked player with massive bat speed and near-perfect technique can only generate a small amount of spin with a "grippy" sponged LP. The notion that a club player, or national league level player can generate spin with sponged LP seems comparatively unlikely.

Of course, the same is so with OX LP. I can't generate spin to make the ball go back over the net, or even go backwards, off a serve. This is not because of "slick pips", or "frictionless rubbers" - the rubber just isn't designed for this sort of job, and the addition of sponge doesn't alter that, regardless of "dwell time".

Having clarified those terms, I'm not saying that the addition of sponge does not permit the player more variation, especially when chopping. That's definitely the case, and is definitely my experience, and the experience and opinion of my coach, who is a former international and world-ranked player (and lifetime sponged LP player). However, let's put to rest once and for all the misleading notion that LP with sponge can *create* spin, especially against no-spin balls.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 06:11 
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[quote="LordCope"Having clarified those terms, I'm not saying that the addition of sponge does not permit the player more variation, especially when chopping. That's definitely the case, and is definitely my experience, and the experience and opinion of my coach, who is a former international and world-ranked player (and lifetime sponged LP player). However, let's put to rest once and for all the misleading notion that LP with sponge can *create* spin, especially against no-spin balls.[/quote]

This is where you contradict yourself. There's certainly more variation possible with sponged LP, but you can't create spin with it. It's one or the other. It can't be both.

Personally if I do a spin test with my LP, I'm able to impart spin. The grippier the LP, the more I'm able to generate.

A testimony of a world class player doesn't mean anything if the player isn't used to LP. I myself know a very good player who plays in the second highest division in Belgium. Boths ides inverted. He says the opposite when playing with my P4 (the rubber I'm currently testing): he can impart backspin on pushes and when chopping he can impart a lot of rotation when using the wrist. I tend to believe him: I saw him play with it and My own experiences confirm it, but the only certitude we'll have over this subject is when a world class LP player confirms or denies the claim.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 06:19 
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Lorre wrote:
This is where you contradict yourself. There's certainly more variation possible with sponged LP, but you can't create spin with it. It's one or the other. It can't be both.


I'm not sure I agree. I think what's happening is you have more variation with angle and timing, so you're able to to vary the extent you use your opponent's spin. I don't think you're creating or overcoming the spin.

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Personally if I do a spin test with my LP, I'm able to impart spin. The grippier the LP, the more I'm able to generate.


Sure, I'm not saying there's *no* spin - it's a matter of degree. There's more ability to generate spin with 'grippy' LP than with frictionless anti. But it's a very small amount, to the extent that I'm suggesting that the variation enjoyed over OX pips is not to do with spin generation.


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The only certitude we'll have over this subject is when a world class LP player confirms or denies the claim.


Depends what you mean by world class. My coach represented his country at the highest level, in international competition, and plays with 0.5mm dtecs, before, he used 1.0mm FL2. His view is that LP do not *generate* spin, but manipulate the spin of the opponent's shot.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 08:44 
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I can do a ghost serve with either fl3 or p4 and have it roll back into the net or over the net. They can generate some but not a tremendous amount when compared to inverted or sp. You can push a push with fl3 and have moderate back spin.

So lp can generate some spin but not a ton, as expected.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 09:12 
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Interesting post, and one that I think about often, and have brought up previously with no consensus.

LC, there is one issue I have with your first post, and that is the use of the term "significant rotation" which is both relative and in need of context.

Relative to my concept of "significant rotation" I would say FL3 in 1.3 and 1.5 can 100% generate significant rotation. As much as inverted? Absolutely not. But enough that if I push a push, the opponent needs to respect the amount of backspin by angling his bat on another push, or lifting it when top spinning. That he cannot just play it like a flat ball makes it significant. And if I chop or loop a dead ball, there is certainly enough respectable spin when using thick FL3 or p4.

That being said, for all other LPs, except for maybe Juic Leggy, most LPs cannot generate much spin at all. They can, however, vary the spin enough to create mistakes. OX is less so, but there is a little of it (Very little if a slick LP). The sponge is there for the purpose of control against pace via dampening and not control via spin-safety. Ox is for spin safety and the ability to use reversal to your advantage.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 09:15 
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skilless_slapper wrote:
I can do a ghost serve with either fl3 or p4 and have it roll back into the net or over the net. They can generate some but not a tremendous amount when compared to inverted or sp. You can push a push with fl3 and have moderate back spin.

So lp can generate some spin but not a ton, as expected.

If one can push a push and impart backspin...meaning they are creating counter backspin against incoming backspin, to me that's significant.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 09:19 
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All LP can generate its own spin, technically. The level of grip of the pips dictate how much, and they're obviously considerably less than any smooth rubber or short pips (because physics); the more frictionless the pimples the "less" the spin it will get.

Desperado 2 is reasonably grippy - I do backspin and topspin serves with my OX. They're very light, and obviously highly deceptive as it looks as if I'm "loading it up" - but the spin is absolutely there.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 09:28 
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Coincidentally I also have spike p2, and can also serve ghost back spins with it.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 09:52 
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Japsican wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
I can do a ghost serve with either fl3 or p4 and have it roll back into the net or over the net. They can generate some but not a tremendous amount when compared to inverted or sp. You can push a push with fl3 and have moderate back spin.

So lp can generate some spin but not a ton, as expected.

If one can push a push and impart backspin...meaning they are creating counter backspin against incoming backspin, to me that's significant.


Yep. With slick antis or slick LPs, the strategy is always loop one, push the next etc. because they count on the blocked loop to be back spin. But for the grippy pips, this is not the case! And nor will your push come back as top spin (so the inverted guy can slam it). Having said that, it is VERY rare to encounter an LP blocker using grippy rubbers at the table. They do not work well. Those slick variety are essentially incapable of changing the spin themselves. Meaning, if you push heavy and they block/push it back... it will return as top spin or a slight top/dead ball.

So what I'm saying is... the question itself does not really pose much of a real world problem. In the sense that people using grippy pips would not be at the table blocking and changing spins, since it is very difficult to do passively.

But to the real question at hand, perhaps -- can LP create enough spin on its own to cause "deception"? Not to a great extent, but I would argue to a problematic point. As in, if you misread the push from FL3, then you will net it! Whereas a push from d.techs or joola badman will always be a near deadball unless someone else imparted spin in my experience.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 12:56 
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In my opinion they can generate faster no spin balls with more forward momentum.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 13:17 
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I think that....

1. If the ball is empty, then I can't get any significant amout of spin to the ball, sponge or not. I don't understand, how Gionis or Filus seem to get good spin to their every push. :?:

2. If the ball is spinny, then the sponged pip really can grip (like FL2 1.0) the ball and change what is in the ball - automatic to the empty ball or spinning the other way around with active shot. With slippery ox the spin stays the same or with aggressive counter move you might get an empty ball.

So the answer is: sponged LP can generate opposite spin, if there is already spin on the ball, so that sponge has more energy to work with.

And in chopping against loops with ox the ball comes often like from the robot, same every time (like with JSH+Dtecs 0x). With sponge you get much more variation in spin and often in speed also. I chopper teammate who get easily frustrated with no spin players, because with BH he can't do else that lift no spin back. But when opponent start looping, there is huge variety in his returns.


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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 15:00 
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Japsican wrote:
The sponge is there for the purpose of control against pace via dampening and not control via spin-safety. Ox is for spin safety and the ability to use reversal to your advantage.


This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 15:01 
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Japsican wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
I can do a ghost serve with either fl3 or p4 and have it roll back into the net or over the net. They can generate some but not a tremendous amount when compared to inverted or sp. You can push a push with fl3 and have moderate back spin.

So lp can generate some spin but not a ton, as expected.

If one can push a push and impart backspin...meaning they are creating counter backspin against incoming backspin, to me that's significant.


That's a good point.

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 15:05 
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Roy wrote:
1. If the ball is empty, then I can't get any significant amout of spin to the ball, sponge or not.


I agree.

Quote:
2. If the ball is spinny, then the sponged pip really can grip (like FL2 1.0) the ball and change what is in the ball


I agree.

Quote:
sponged LP can generate opposite spin, if there is already spin on the ball, so that sponge has more energy to work with.


Yes.

Quote:
With sponge you get much more variation in spin and often in speed also.


Definitely. And maybe we're just getting caught up in terminology, and in understanding what causes this variation. I agree with Japsican, that this is down to cushioning and control that sponge provides. Any ability to generate any spin at all is, I think, minimally significant compared to the amount of spin on the ball (or not).

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PostPosted: 22 May 2018, 18:47 
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lps with sponge can create more spin than lps without sponge, due to the fact that with sponge, the ball sinks more into the rubber and has a longer dwell time, whereas in ox (without sponge) it jumps off the bat faster.

something people are forgetting here is that the question of creating spin has a lot to do with the surface of the pimples...the top of the pimple can either have rills or not. the ones with rills can create more spin and are affected more by spin. and then there is the question of how frictionless the rubber material is. there used to be (?) a lp from hallmark for e.g that had a sticky surface and thus could create a lot more spin than your usual lp.

so can lps generate spin? it really depends on which type of lp you are talking about and how you define "significant amount"

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