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mynamenotbob
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2011, 21:39 
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Here's an interesting tidbit from dwruck's very informative U.S. Open blog (viewtopic.php?f=58&t=16419) where he is volunteering as a racket tester.

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One interesting thing that one of the umpires showed me is the way that they determine if there's enough friction on the pips. It was a small pocket-sized thing that he had. When he flipped it open, there were small samples of four different levels of pip "friction". One was labeled as frictionless, one was labeled as poor friction (and not acceptable), one was labeled as "good" and one was labeled as "very good". Each pip sample was just a small square, and you had no idea what the brand was of each one. They were just on there to be able to use to compare the feel. So, what he did was take a ball and lightly rub it across my pips. Then he took the same ball and lightly rubbed it across each of the four small squares, in order to compare the feel of the friction. he determined that the Dragon Talon most closely resembled the "very good" friction sample so they were o.k. It just seems like an extremely subjective way of determining the legality of the friction level of pips, but I suppose that's the best thing that most tournaments can have right now. When I rubbed the ball across the four small samples, I could definitely tell a difference, so maybe in most cases it is sufficient.

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Pushblocker
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2011, 21:42 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit from dwruck's very informative U.S. Open blog (http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=16419) where he is volunteering as a racket tester.

Quote:
One interesting thing that one of the umpires showed me is the way that they determine if there's enough friction on the pips. It was a small pocket-sized thing that he had. When he flipped it open, there were small samples of four different levels of pip "friction". One was labeled as frictionless, one was labeled as poor friction (and not acceptable), one was labeled as "good" and one was labeled as "very good". Each pip sample was just a small square, and you had no idea what the brand was of each one. They were just on there to be able to use to compare the feel. So, what he did was take a ball and lightly rub it across my pips. Then he took the same ball and lightly rubbed it across each of the four small squares, in order to compare the feel of the friction. he determined that the Dragon Talon most closely resembled the "very good" friction sample so they were o.k. It just seems like an extremely subjective way of determining the legality of the friction level of pips, but I suppose that's the best thing that most tournaments can have right now. When I rubbed the ball across the four small samples, I could definitely tell a difference, so maybe in most cases it is sufficient.


Isn't Kagin Lee the Deputy Referee of this years US Open? He is known for doing those BS tests.. ZERO objectivity!

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haggisv
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2011, 22:13 
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I would not call it a BS test... it's his job to decide if rubbers are treated, and as referee it would be his call to make a decision on this. Since the ITTF does not provide any equipment to test for this, he's improvising. Sure, the test won't be accurate, but it would probably be suitable to identify rubbers that are obviously treated. Any rubber that are marginal or in doubt should be given the benefit of the doubt. Like it or not, it would be his call to make decisions on whether ITTF rules are broken or not, so he can decide what methods he uses to test the equipment.

I don't like these rules, and it makes the job of the referees so much harder, so I feel for the guys that get landed with making these decisions...they're just doing their job... they're not to blame for the questionable rule changes, and the fact that the rules are too hard to police...

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Pushblocker
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 03:17 
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haggisv wrote:
I would not call it a BS test... it's his job to decide if rubbers are treated, and as referee it would be his call to make a decision on this. Since the ITTF does not provide any equipment to test for this, he's improvising. Sure, the test won't be accurate, but it would probably be suitable to identify rubbers that are obviously treated. Any rubber that are marginal or in doubt should be given the benefit of the doubt. Like it or not, it would be his call to make decisions on whether ITTF rules are broken or not, so he can decide what methods he uses to test the equipment.

I don't like these rules, and it makes the job of the referees so much harder, so I feel for the guys that get landed with making these decisions...they're just doing their job... they're not to blame for the questionable rule changes, and the fact that the rules are too hard to police...

If you rub a ball on a rubber without pressure, you will not know what the friction level of the rubber is as such test has to be performed under pressure so that the pips necks come into play. The official device has a wheel on top to apply a certain amount of pressure to the ball and to recreate that, the ball would have to be applied to the rubber under just that pressure. Otherwise, it's not anywhere close to accurate. FURTHERMORE, there is no minimum friction rule as it's a regulation. IF a rubber has lower friction than originally is in no way evidence that a rubber has been treated. Rubbers can lose friction in a natural way and the same thing applies to inverted.. IF they test rubbers for different properties, they would have to do the same test to inverted rubbers to see if their properties changed as THAT rule applies to all, and not just pips rubbers.. There is not specific pips rule when it comes to that.. The only pips specific rule is not a rule. It's a regulation to manufactorers. There IS NO minimum friction rule that applies to players.

Furthermore, a directive to referees and umpires had been issued to all referees and umpires (by the person in charge of training them) that they have to allow a rubber if they have no SCIENTIFIC way of determining if the rubber was altered. Rubbing the ball is NOT scientific!

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roundrobin
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 04:48 
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Adham actually said before that some ITTF racket control test sites have a board with chunks of three different LPs mounted on it for friction references...
This is the first I heard that FOUR LPs are used. Probably a Kagin invention. ;) His former invention to test LPs was to hold your paddle with the LP side up, put a ball on top of it and move the paddle side-by-side. If the ball stays in position without being dragged by friction, then the rubber fails his friction test. He has said the ball's stationary weight is more than enough pressure to test friction. I wonder if that's the weight ITTF's official testing machine actually applies to approve/disapprove LPs for licensing... :^) :?:

At any rate, I am more than used to the "rubbing" tests performed by our local Friction Police! :lol: (I always look at them with a smirk and ask: "Is it legal Sir?" "Does my rubber pass the test?")
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Bogeyhunter
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 05:43 
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haggisv wrote:
I would not call it a BS test... it's his job to decide if rubbers are treated, and as referee it would be his call to make a decision on this. Since the ITTF does not provide any equipment to test for this, he's improvising. Sure, the test won't be accurate, but it would probably be suitable to identify rubbers that are obviously treated. Any rubber that are marginal or in doubt should be given the benefit of the doubt. Like it or not, it would be his call to make decisions on whether ITTF rules are broken or not, so he can decide what methods he uses to test the equipment.

I don't like these rules, and it makes the job of the referees so much harder, so I feel for the guys that get landed with making these decisions...they're just doing their job... they're not to blame for the questionable rule changes, and the fact that the rules are too hard to police...


Agree. It's not a BS. Something has to be done. Some people takes advantage of the rules. I like it!!! no.....LOVE it!!!
Might not be the best thing but it enough to make those epoxy, UV, baking in the Sun LP scientists think twice before doing it.
I'm gonna ask Kagin if it is his idea.

Anyway, I have no concern about this rules. My rubber will pass the test without doubt.

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mynamenotbob
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 06:04 
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Bogeyhunter wrote:
Some people takes advantage of the rules.

Yes, like most of the top level inverted players who see no problem with using illegally tuned rubbers. Kagin should simply throw out any Tenergy sponge that measures over 2.1mm (even by .01). Who needs a sniff test?

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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 06:06 
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This is so common in our world dominated by big business, big government and big dis-organizations of all types. The scum at the top do something rotten and take no responsibility. Then the people doing the actual work have to look like idiots trying to comply with the mandated nonsense.

If they think a rub test can produce the same results as the objective machine they should have to demonstrate that it does.

I think a light rub test is very inaccurate. Resistance with heavy force is more indicative of how the rubber plays in my actual experience.

I hate this but at least it reinforces my decision to go to the Nightmare anti. :)

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roundrobin
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 06:25 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Bogeyhunter wrote:
Some people takes advantage of the rules.

Yes, like most of the top level inverted players who see no problem with using illegally tuned rubbers. Kagin should simply throw out any Tenergy sponge that measures over 2.1mm (even by .01). Who needs a sniff test?


Good luck with that in the table tennis world controlled by inverted zealots! I just hate those who only target LP "cheaters" and applaud this kind of subjective tests, while players who use illegal tuners/boosters go about their usual business. Hypocrites...

Mnnb you are right, a simple sponge thickness test compared to a stock Tenergy (and a sniff test while at it) should be used to disqualify all inverted users who fail to match the sample's sponge thickness and smell. :lol:
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hookshot
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 06:27 
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I doubt the "Rub test" would work in China or Dallas in the summer on a 95% humidity day.
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PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 06:36 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
Bogeyhunter wrote:
Some people takes advantage of the rules.

Yes, like most of the top level inverted players who see no problem with using illegally tuned rubbers. Kagin should simply throw out any Tenergy sponge that measures over 2.1mm (even by .01). Who needs a sniff test?


I won't comment about that, not the topic here.

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Bogeyhunter
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2011, 06:37 
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hookshot wrote:
I doubt the "Rub test" would work in China or Dallas in the summer on a 95% humidity day.


I have no idea but I'm sure having this in place will make those scientists think twice. That's enough.

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Rub THIS !! <adjust package>

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hookshot wrote:
I doubt the "Rub test" would work in China or Dallas in the summer on a 95% humidity day.


Subjective rub tests are pure b.s., as it depends on human touch. It's discriminatory and completely illegal. It's exactly the same as using your nose to compare VOC levels of tested inverted rubbers with four stock samples... I demand that each referee must inhale deeply twice with each tested inverted rubber and each sample to make a judgment call.
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Bogeyhunter wrote:

I have no idea but I'm sure having this in place will make those scientists think twice. That's enough.


God forbid anybody who actually plays the game should resist being screwed over by corrupt bureaucrats.

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