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Pip structure
https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64		 Page 2 of 4
Author:  Bogeyhunter [ 20 Jan 2007, 05:34 ]
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Diabolosyl wrote:
I think there is a difference according to the position of the pips, there is for example the Tony Hold Virus: in the marketing ads, they say you can use it into two positions : a fast and a slow one. No more comment on it and I never try it but this could be.
It would maybe also explain some strange movements on the video of Neubauer.

Here's the big/important word......in the marketing ads. It makes you wonder and ....you gotta buy it to know....then it works.
Just what I think, might be wrong.
Author:  Diabolosyl [ 20 Jan 2007, 05:43 ]
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Yes of course this could be only marketing. But try to block with a movement in several direction, you will find a difference in your return. I think it shows us the pimples don't react in the same way.
Author:  haggisv [ 20 Jan 2007, 07:48 ]
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I'm not entirely sure if we're all talking about the same thing here, so here are some pics to illustrate what I mean:

755 Faster:
Image

Cloud & Fog 3:
Image

As you can see, the rows of pimples on the 755 faster run from the handle to the tip of the blade, you can see in between the rows.

Whereas the rows of the CLoud & Fog 3 run at diagonals to the sides of the bat, and actually run from one adge of the bat to the other, but this is not shown in the picture.

So I can sort of see that if you brush the ball ALONG the direction of the rows, you may not get as much grip as compared to going against the rows...but I'm not convinced it makes a significant difference.
Author:  Diabolosyl [ 20 Jan 2007, 18:36 ]
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Yes I think so, the positioning of the pimples may influence the effect you can give.
Author:  Mathias [ 21 Jan 2007, 04:16 ]
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I think it is very difficult to assess - you need the same rubber with pips moving in opposite directions. All the frictionless I have use horizontal pip structures (with respect to the handle), suggesting they think this will generate more reverse spin.

I'd like to know if C7 was vertical...
Author:  Mathias [ 21 Jan 2007, 04:32 ]
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Yeah the test is C7. If C7 gives a vertical pip structure then the manufactuers must think it makes a difference because you want grip when attacking and C7, 755 faster, Leggy are seen as attacking pips.

755 is horizontal and I guess this is within the attacking pips, but not ultra attacking.

I'll be getting Hallmark Frustration soon so this will be another test case.
Author:  LawOCG [ 22 Jan 2007, 11:23 ]
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Ive only had 2 vertically arranged long pips all together now. The first was the 755 faster, but I was very reluctant to try it because it was so fast on the german sponge. The regular 755 was hard enough to control, so I was put off by the faster. The second is the Globe 979...I find it awfully odd that on the ITTF website in the equipment section, the globe 979 is seen with horizontally aligned pips. Both my globe 979's are vertically arranged.

The red variant is smooth a grippy, while the black is rough and seemingly frictionless. :?: *shrugs*

Well I have a preschool theory on how the pimples react. For instance chopping...

If you chop with horizontally aligned pips, the pips will fluctuate more and pass back most of the opponents spin.

The vertical aligned pips will fluctuate less as you chop and you will have 2 options. If your racket speed is fast enough you can create spin along with the oncoming spin to produce a extremely heavy ball. The second option is that if your racket speed is slow, you wont bend the pips enough to pass any spin and the result would be a dead/knuckle ball.

but then again, there are so many variables that come in......hardness,springyness, elasticity, feeling, length of the pips :? :?

*shrugs* someone shed some light on how different orientation affects the play of the rubber.
Author:  Mathias [ 23 Jan 2007, 02:04 ]
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Those are good points.

I've just received Hallmark Frustration and the alignment is horizontal so that blows my 'its attacking' theory out of the window because Frustration is supposed to be an attacking pip.

The blade I need to test it on has yet to arrive.
Author:  usagi [ 09 Jul 2008, 20:13 ]
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Was comparing my Moristo SP (vertical) with Geko's Tango Ultra (horizontal)...

Do you think this alignment thing affect short pip as well?
Author:  Mathias [ 10 Jul 2008, 05:36 ]
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Hmm... this is an old thread...

Yes but not to the same extent. It must particularly affect the ability of the ball to get between the pips. In short pips this is for the ball to catch on the edge of the 'stem'. I would have thought your alignment was more predictable, but there wouldn't be much in it.
Author:  kagin [ 10 Jul 2008, 11:54 ]
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With short pips and inverted, horizontal alignment is generally acknowledged to be stiffer/have quicker rebound. Vertical alignment is for more resilience and higher spin capability. This is for shots in which the racket tip is facing to the side, not tip-down penhold or tip-up shakehand/seemiller blocks. Sriver used to be (or perhaps still is) sold in two versions: the "S" version (for speed?) most suitable for hitters, and the "L" version which is most suitable for loopers. The two versions were identical except for the pip alignment: "S" has (or had) horizontally aligned pips; "L" has vertically aligned pips and is generally what you find for sale today.

However i've never considered how pip alignment would affect long pips. I suspect that hallmark and neubauer long pips are horizontally aligned not by design, but rather because that's how the molds used by the rubber factories happened to be set up. If someone really wants to test the properties you can just glue the exact same rubber on both sides of your racket with the rubber glued on sideways on one side. It may very well be that vertically aligned pips are superior (feel "longer") in every sense. Considering how long the chinese and japanese manufacturers were making long pips before hallmark/neubauer did their thing, i wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot they still don't understand about long pips.
Author:  Mathias [ 10 Jul 2008, 17:45 ]
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Thats interesting. What you are saying in effect is that horizontally aligned pips carry more spin reversal. The vertical alignment of 755-faster and 979 (both very aggressive long pips) allows a better looping action.

That seems to make sense - its difficult for the ball to get between the pips if they are horizontally aligned.

It doesn't explain how they managed to ban 755-faster though on grounds of excessive "frictionlessness".

So in context to the question your pips will allow a better looping style stroke and will carry more spin because more of the pips "edges" can grip the ball as it makes contact with the rubber.

With a horizontal alignment an element of randomness must creep in because the number of pips in contact with the ball must have greater variation between strokes.

I've learnt something new and for Haggisv horizontal alignment might be worth considering (if you can find a suitable lp).
Author:  Mathias [ 10 Jul 2008, 17:50 ]
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Haggisv you really need to get alot of this stuff on the website 'cause threads like this one will get lost.

Perhaps ask old Speedplay the Anti-Strong if he could clip this thread into the pips website section and flag threads that could be converted into website articles at a later date.

Thanks for digging this up usagi, we need to do more of this sort of stuff for unresolved questions. When the question was posed the first time none of us had a clue what the answer was - there isn't enough vertically aligned pips for us to draw a comparison from. Thanks kagin as well.

I guess for long pip players the question was answered for us long ago, so we don't have a choice now. Reverse spin and randomness are the whole concept behind pips so this is OK I guess.
Author:  haggisv [ 10 Jul 2008, 19:14 ]
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Yes I agree... I'll sticky it for now... hope you can still see it! You have a wealth of information kagin, really glad you're sharing it with us here :wink:
Author:  Mathias [ 10 Jul 2008, 21:48 ]
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If the effect is large we should be able to use it to good effect by increasing the spin in a chop or a sideswipe (described previously).

Haggisv you should notice more effect than the rest of us 'cause of your choice of tacky pips.

A diagonal alignment would be interesting (glue logo so that its diagonal to the handle) that way you could more readily shift between horizontal and vertical. Think you'd need a much tackier pip though to make it worth while if its legal.
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