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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2008, 22:28 
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kagin wrote:
With short pips and inverted, horizontal alignment is generally acknowledged to be stiffer/have quicker rebound. Vertical alignment is for more resilience and higher spin capability. This is for shots in which the racket tip is facing to the side, not tip-down penhold or tip-up shakehand/seemiller blocks. Sriver used to be (or perhaps still is) sold in two versions: the "S" version (for speed?) most suitable for hitters, and the "L" version which is most suitable for loopers. The two versions were identical except for the pip alignment: "S" has (or had) horizontally aligned pips; "L" has vertically aligned pips and is generally what you find for sale today.


hmm... let me see if I understand correctly... so if I block with my blade tip-up, the ball should shoot off faster and flatter on a vertically aligned short pip than if I block on a horizontally aligned blade?

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PostPosted: 10 Jul 2008, 23:56 
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Mathias wrote:
If the effect is large we should be able to use it to good effect by increasing the spin in a chop or a sideswipe (described previously).

Haggisv you should notice more effect than the rest of us 'cause of your choice of tacky pips.

A diagonal alignment would be interesting (glue logo so that its diagonal to the handle) that way you could more readily shift between horizontal and vertical. Think you'd need a much tackier pip though to make it worth while if its legal.


So what you're saying is i should get 2 new identical sheets, glue them on either side of a blade, and see if the difference is noticable...?

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2008, 00:07 
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Mathias wrote:
A diagonal alignment would be interesting (glue logo so that its diagonal to the handle) that way you could more readily shift between horizontal and vertical. Think you'd need a much tackier pip though to make it worth while if its legal.


I am not quite sure how that works (given that the pips form a hexagonal pattern), a horizontal alignment would also have two other alignments forming an equilateral triangle with the horizontal alignment...

and then you might also have to have it for left hander versus right hander...

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2008, 00:43 
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Usagi, don't think too much about these pip structures and how do they affect your pip playing. I have never thought or notice these stuffs (until now) and I am doing fine with my pips.

For now, just play, experiment with your strokes and get used to the blade and rubbers. Once you are comfortable with the pips, then you can look further like these guys.


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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2008, 02:11 
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haggisv wrote:
Mathias wrote:
If the effect is large we should be able to use it to good effect by increasing the spin in a chop or a sideswipe (described previously).

Haggisv you should notice more effect than the rest of us 'cause of your choice of tacky pips.

A diagonal alignment would be interesting (glue logo so that its diagonal to the handle) that way you could more readily shift between horizontal and vertical. Think you'd need a much tackier pip though to make it worth while if its legal.


So what you're saying is i should get 2 new identical sheets, glue them on either side of a blade, and see if the difference is noticable...?


Couldn't do that - one would be illegal perhaps? Could however change the orientation of the pips to the oncoming ball. Its spinny long pips are your thing so a vertical alignment would enhance the spin?

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2008, 02:15 
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usagi wrote:
kagin wrote:
With short pips and inverted, horizontal alignment is generally acknowledged to be stiffer/have quicker rebound. Vertical alignment is for more resilience and higher spin capability. This is for shots in which the racket tip is facing to the side, not tip-down penhold or tip-up shakehand/seemiller blocks. Sriver used to be (or perhaps still is) sold in two versions: the "S" version (for speed?) most suitable for hitters, and the "L" version which is most suitable for loopers. The two versions were identical except for the pip alignment: "S" has (or had) horizontally aligned pips; "L" has vertically aligned pips and is generally what you find for sale today.


hmm... let me see if I understand correctly... so if I block with my blade tip-up, the ball should shoot off faster and flatter on a vertically aligned short pip than if I block on a horizontally aligned blade?


Thats the idea, but I guess the stroke would need to be more active to be noticeable. Tat's advise is useful, if you just play your game once you've got it then this sort of stuff is something to think about.

Its a good question though partic. for short pips.

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PostPosted: 11 Jul 2008, 17:11 
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Mathias wrote:
Thats interesting. What you are saying in effect is that horizontally aligned pips carry more spin reversal. The vertical alignment of 755-faster and 979 (both very aggressive long pips) allows a better looping action.

That seems to make sense - its difficult for the ball to get between the pips if they are horizontally aligned.
I want to emphasize that i don't know what the effect of horizontal vs vertical alignment has on long pips. With inverted it's easier to see; the rubber is generally operating with static friction, and the pips are being pushed and pulled around by the ball. More range of movement results in more spring in the spin domain. Long pips tend to operate in dynamic friction. The purpose of the pips is not to store energy (often they're used to absorb energy). They collapse to allow the spin to continue. My first guess would be that vertical alignment would be superior if the intention is to continue spin, but there are probably other factors i'm not considering.

By the way i think it's confusing to use the term "loop" in regards to long pips. A loop is generally used to describe a shot (action by the player and resulting flight of the ball), not a stroke (action by the player only). You can use a looping stroke with long pips, but the ball has light spin at best. If the ball already has spin and you use a loop stroke to continue it, that's more of a roll.


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It doesn't explain how they managed to ban 755-faster though on grounds of excessive "frictionlessness".
One possibility - the measurement was made moving the ball from left to right, and with that alignment the pips have more room to move, thus the ball seems to have less resistance, misinterpreted as less friction. I'm really reaching here!


Mathias wrote:
A diagonal alignment would be interesting (glue logo so that its diagonal to the handle) that way you could more readily shift between horizontal and vertical. Think you'd need a much tackier pip though to make it worth while if its legal.
Rotating the rubber 30 degrees changes it from horizontal to vertical alignment. Another 30 degrees turns it back to horizontal, etc. So if you're talking about a 15 degree rotation where you have neither horizontal nor vertical pips . . . well, i guess i first want to know what the effect of horizontal vs vertical pips is before evaluating whether a 15 degree rotation has any value. If one or the other is clearly better, there should be no use for something in between.


usagi wrote:
hmm... let me see if I understand correctly... so if I block with my blade tip-up, the ball should shoot off faster and flatter on a vertically aligned short pip than if I block on a horizontally aligned blade?
If we're talking about the rubber itself, yes. But the effects of pip alignment are tiny compared to the effect of the stroke you put onto the ball. It is not worth changing technique to go for a particular pip alignment.


haggisv wrote:
So what you're saying is i should get 2 new identical sheets, glue them on either side of a blade, and see if the difference is noticable...?
We're waiting for the results! The rubber doesn't have to be new, they can already be cut. Just glue one at a 30 degree angle so the pip orientation is changed. Ideally they have an equal amount of glue buildup or use a glue sheet, and have no sponge as that would be an additional variable. Test passive blocks, chop blocks, counterspin, chops away from the table. Try it against light and heavy spin, fast and slow balls; observe the resulting pace and how much spin the ball retains after your shot. It's possible that one alignment is better against light or heavy spin, or against faster or slower balls. Remember, when testing the effects of equipment changes, feel is worthless. The important thing is what actually happens to the ball.

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PostPosted: 20 Dec 2008, 05:12 
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i do not think that pip structure is really significant to the way the ball reacts to the structure. i mean like if theoretically i chop downwards on differently aligned pips the ball contacts the pips differently, there would be a difference. but the thing is, as far as i can see, not every stroke is the same so that the effect (if any) would be different, it would be due to the stroke.

well thats what my point of view anyway. im sure i have flaws in my view so please enlighten me.


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 Post subject: pip alignment variations
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2009, 00:46 
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I could not help seeing this and respondiing.. (its break time at work) I read an article years ago that pip structure called north south east west or horizonal or virticle does make some differance. Donic came out with a rubber 20+ years ago that had the logo on two sides so you could cut them in a speed or drive config. As a rule notice many chinese rubber are east west. horizonal *ir speed. add tacky surface and you can recieve serves and spin and have speed. go to a verticle pip and you have spin Ie european rubbers. I use that when i use my long pips to loop with by keeping my blade pointing north _verticle when looping. and pointing my smooth rubber horizonal when looping.

Hope this was helpful
GIG

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 Post subject: Re: Pip structure
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2010, 09:57 
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The following long pips have vertical rows:

Armstrong Twister
DHS C-7
TSP Curl P-2
Juic Leggy
XuShaoFa 989
Globe 979
Donic Alligator Def

I measured the grip difference of these rubbers one times vertical and one time horizontal. There is no difference between the grip of the sides. But there is a diffenrence between the surface. The vertical rubber has first less grip then the horizontal because the horizontal rows slow down more. When you play with normal technics, you play the ball more often with a horizontal alignment of the bat. That completely change the situation. The rubbers with horizontal rows are now vertikal while stroking the ball and vice versa.
If you play with the vertical rubbers you may have more grip of the surface and if you play with the horizontal rubbers the grip of the surface is less. Maybe the vertical rubbers play a bit more controlled when blocking at the table and the horziontal rubber have the better control at mid distance. For me that point isn't a big matter similar to the difference between the pips with textured and even heads.

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 Post subject: Re: Pip structure
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2010, 19:30 
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Very useful info martinspin! Welcome back, I have not seen you around for a long time!

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 Post subject: Re: Pip structure
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2010, 20:30 
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haggisv wrote:
Very useful info martinspin! Welcome back, I have not seen you around for a long time!


I'm working on a big project about long pimples rubbers. In a few weeks I've worked out all relevant data about 90 available long pips: mass of heigth, diameter, spaces, topsheet; aspect ratio, springiness, grip of the sides and the surface, disposal and texture of the heads. With these data players will have good indications about the skills of a single covering. I'm trying to describe strengt and weakness of every rubber and hopefully this will help to understand the big differences between these rubbers.

Cheers, Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Pip structure
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2010, 05:08 
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That sounds like a huge project Martin. You must have experienced so many different pips in it and you still have Neptune listed as your pip of choice (or have you just not changed sig? :lol: ). Is there something about Neptune you find better than the rest?

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 Post subject: Re: Pip structure
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2010, 05:25 
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martinspin wrote:
I'm working on a big project about long pimples rubbers. In a few weeks I've worked out all relevant data about 90 available long pips: mass of heigth, diameter, spaces, topsheet; aspect ratio, springiness, grip of the sides and the surface, disposal and texture of the heads. With these data players will have good indications about the skills of a single covering. I'm trying to describe strengt and weakness of every rubber and hopefully this will help to understand the big differences between these rubbers.

Cheers, Martin

What did you find is best for blocking at the table?

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 Post subject: Re: Pip structure
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2010, 06:39 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
martinspin wrote:
I'm working on a big project about long pimples rubbers. In a few weeks I've worked out all relevant data about 90 available long pips: mass of heigth, diameter, spaces, topsheet; aspect ratio, springiness, grip of the sides and the surface, disposal and texture of the heads. With these data players will have good indications about the skills of a single covering. I'm trying to describe strengt and weakness of every rubber and hopefully this will help to understand the big differences between these rubbers.

Cheers, Martin

What did you find is best for blocking at the table?


This question is not easy to replay. There are some long pimples who are suitable for blocking. There are also different blocking styles like backside similiar blocking technics, push-blockings with smooth opened bat, backspin blocking with underarm accereleration or stop blocking like with frictionless pimples. Some of these rubbers have great disturbing effects and great spin reversal and on the other side there are rubbers with great control and power.

Active blocking
Butterfly Feint Soft
Butterfly Feint Long II
Butterfly AG
Dr. Neubauer Boomerang Classic
Guoqiu Miracle
Friendship RITC 755
Hallmark Frustration

Push-Blocking
Bomb Talent
Donic Akkadi L1
Donic Akkadi L2
Donic Piranja FD-TEC

Backspin-Blocking
Butterfly Feint Long III
Amsir Sensation
DHS Cloud & Fog III
Joola Orca

Frictionless Pimples-Blocking
Dr. Neubauer Monster Classic
Dawei Saviga V
Amsir Flutter
Hallmark Phoenix
Joola Shark


@Reb
Neptune is my reference for spin reversal when chopping at mid-distance. When you play against dead balls the Neptune is very inefficient. That's why I'm searching for a similiar LP that has less springy pips necks. The Sword Scylla is a very good alternative. Similar spin reversal but much better possiblities when attacking.

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