OOAK Table Tennis Forum

What thickness and how do you play? Particularly interested in 1.2 up to 1.5 mm sponge. Bonus for posting videos of game play. Thanx

van

From my years of experience testing all kinds of long pips combinations & permutations at higher amateur levels over 2100 in tournaments as well in leagues , below is my opinion & I know many players may disagree., which is fine

For almost all amateur players playing mostly against players rated below USATT 2200, as far as I am concerned, there are only and only two possibilities.

Away from the table choppers, if they still exist, must use high friction long pips like Feint Long 3 OX
Close to the table blockers must use low friction long pips like Tibhar Dtec OX

OX only. No sponge.

Sponge thickness 1.0 mm to 1.5 mm is TOTALLY useless in almost all cases amateur or pro. Almost all pros I know of, use at least 1.8 mm thick sponge under long pips. 1.8 mm is the max legally possible to keep the total rubber thickness below 4 mm including pip length limit of 2 mm & glue. 1.8 mm may even be high maybe 1.7 mm.

In rare cases such 1.8 mm thick sponge long pips may work for amateur players with truly all around skills on long pips side .......blocking, chopping, lobbing, smashing & fake looping(or heavy spin looping after twiddling) but this is the exception rather than the rule.

Many medium pips or any 1.5 mm LP or MP may be good as transition rubbers for players trying to switch to long pips for first time, but that is not a final end point.

When you put 1 mm to 1.5 mm sponge under long pips at amateur levels you lost the control of OX but also do not have maximum power of 1.8 mm sponge. Pros need 1.8 mm for a different reason because the boosted incoming loops sink deep into the sponge and almost hit the wood and shoots off the end. (In many chopper vs looper pro videos, you will occasionally see the ball shoot off the looper end even with chopper using long pips with 1.8 mm sponge). For an amateur this is not a problem but in fact the loss of control of sponge as compared to OX is a bigger problem for amateurs who deal with lower spins and speeds.


I only use long pips OX now. I gave 1.0 mm to 1.5 mm sponge a good try like 10 times over the years but failed miserably. But I had good success against 2200 players with 1.8 mm sponge OX (specifically TSP Curl P3……….no they don’t make 1.8 mm. I customized it , though all my big wins against 2200+ players came using OX sponge) .

I am currently modifying a racket. The custom made blade is way too fast for the long pips I like mostly for chopping and some blocking and this results in less back spin (reversal) on backhand & less top spin on my forehand with spinny inverted rubber.. So I am adding a 0.5 mm sponge under the long pips . I know from my past experiences (about 10 times) for sure that I will lose some control but will risk it to gain back the spin reversal on backhand & top spin on forehand. I will see how it goes. BTW I also am trying KTL Pro XT instead of the more powerful Mercury I use on my forehand as well. It is also known to be the litest rubber I think. I like this high speed of the blade a lot but don’t like the loss of back spin (reversal) on backhand & top spin on forehand . So I am trying to slow down both sides to see how it goes.

I actually quite completely agree with you. Almost all successful Pro level players who use shakehand LP are choppers, and to properly chop, you will need some sponge, is it 1.0, 1.5, or 1.8, I don't know, because I am not a chopper.

Penholder LP, is a bit another topic, so we skip that for this reply.

For amateur shakehander, or anyone who is shakehand, playing LP, but not chopping, USATT 2200 is probably quite a good estimate of the "max" level. But again, if Ma Long, wants to play around a take any LP shakehand blade, inverted the other side, he can still easily be well over 2200 USATT, he can get over 2200, only use his forehand inverted, but those are, another story.

So we say, real long pimples players, who don't chop. max out at 2200, is about where I would guess. And yes, most likely OX with quite frictionless LP like Grass Dtecs will give best results. And surprise, that's the kind of set up I'm using.

However, I know a lot of amateur players like to attack or attack more, or try ot attack more with the LP and with some sponge, is easier. But against players who are over 2000 rating, a LP attack is more of a novelty than a real threat, take half step back and can return it safely. But against lower level players, of course, any attack is threatening, and being able to attack with LP is intriguing and somehow cool, because a lot of people can't do it well.

For myself, I want to get myself back to around a 2000 rating level, and my arm had injuries, so I can't backhand attack very hard anyway, so I choose not to bother with attacking with LP. But I know a lot of LP players want to attack with their LP.

So I guess it's a bit where you want your level to be, and how you enjoy the game, to determine how much sponge or OX is best for each of us

I've been using Butterfly IliuB 1.5mm red on a Korbel blade for the last couple of months. I am really liking what this rubber can do. I've tried everything from OX to 1.5 and DtecS and Dornenglanz to Feint 3 and now IliusB. DtecS, Dornenglanz and P1R were the best in OX and Feint 3 and IliusB were the best with sponge. I don't think fast sponge on LP works for most people and certainly not me. I need the sponge to absorb the speed of hard hits and fast spinny loops so that I can change speeds and spin.

The IliusB has a hard 48 degree sponge. I can play it like short pips/inverted by getting the ball to sink into the pips and the sponge. It can produce enough spin that opponents need to really pay attention to how much spin is on the ball. I have even had some very high rated players (over 2200) misread the amount of topspin and literally have the ball shoot over my head. On lighter contact where the ball is mostly on the pips it is more like any other LP. It doesn't have high reversal like an OX LP would but chop blocks have good spin. Mostly I think because the Korbel blade is fairly fast, keeping the ball short requires good touch and a loose grip. Chopping from distance is easy and you get good spin.

This combination works best if you are active with your stokes. It's really not for just letting the ball hit the racket. The ball will die and not make it over the net because the sponge is very slow, but not Feint 3 slow. Blocking really hard hits and loops is not that difficult though but the rubber acts more like short pips/inverted then. You can also take the ball early and side swipe which works great on service returns.

As an unapologetic EJ that rarely keeps the same LP/anti/short pips on their racket for more than a few weeks it has been good for me to keep working with the IliusB. I may have found the one rubber that can do everything that I want.

I am an apologetic EJ. I also would be thrilled beyond measure to make it to solid 2000 USATT level. Highest ever was only 1898 as a near pure LP chopper with sponge. Currently I have a MUCH better inverted FH than I did back then, but have almost no one to train with using my LP on my BH. Currently am also much older, fatter and rating has dipped below 1600.

I asked this question for a number of reasons. One is that I simply cannot play with LP in OX. I have tried for at least two extended periods of time (along with trials of SP chopper and double inverted player). My goal now with LP is not to chop or to be a chop blocker, rather I want to use my LP to block or hit. I also want to be able to push (using the sponge) against short heavy underspin balls. I have been using 0.5 sponge but find I still make some of the same mistakes I did with OX.

My goal in hitting is not so much speed as variation from my FH typical inverted attack.

I think 1.0 sponge is working better than 0.5 for me and so I wonder about 1.5. My current blades are pretty fast, so do much chopping is not going to happen. I am now the old guy finishing points quickly rather than the younger faster guy extending points as long as possible.

I have seen some good play by a guy using Ilius (not sure if it was the B version or not) and 1.5 sponge.

I played in a tournament this weekend and I definitely saw an improvement in my results. I have been bouncing back and forth from the high 1500's to almost 1800 for a year or so. My highest rating is right around 2000 but that was 25 years ago with a 15 year break playing age group soccer. I did switch equipment from two sided heavily reglued inverted a bit then to using anti-spin but I did not experiment much with long pips. The learning curve was too steep and I had limited time to play. I did learn to twiddle pretty well at that time and use that often when I play now. I've been back paying TT the last 4 1/2 years and decided that I needed to learn to change the speed and spin of the game to compete with the pure speed of the new type rubbers. Frictionless anti is the same for me as OX LP, I just seem to have better results using LP with sponge.

I have used Feint 3 1.3mm on fast blades and have been able to chop pretty well with it. It is so slow that even a very fast blade is easy to control. My training partner can't part with their 1 ply hinoki Nittaku Myabi and the same IliusB 1.5 that I use and they can chop really will with good spin. I also have a single ply custom cypress blade with IliusB on it and it doesn't seem too fast. I think that is the beauty of slow rubber on a fast blade. With soft hands the rubber takes over and slows the ball down and you get some reversal but when you need it you can hit, block and counter to win a point outright.

My biggest problem this weekend was that I needed to be braver and not play too passive with the pips including chops and pushes.. I lost too many points returning easy balls instead of hitting through the ball and putting pressure on my opponent. That is something that I can work on as I get more confident with all the things the IliusB will let me do. I'm going to keep using it and see how far it takes me.

The simple idea that one size fits all is wrong. The highest rated male chopper in Russia is using Grass Dtecs 0.5. I think he knows better what does he do.

I probably would have gotten more replies if I could spell, "sponge"...