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dunc
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2016, 22:02 
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Please allow me to cast my opinion on this, which is rather contrary to some of the text you'll see in this post but I think most modern-day users of FL3 will agree with me. I usually play Curl P1-R (in various sponge thicknesses, from 0.5mm to 1.5mm) but I played all of last season with FL3 max sponge.

In addition, one of the most successful choppers in our league uses FL3 0.5mm. I've played against him for probably 100 hours now so I know how his rubber reacts, and a lot of my thoughts below are measured from that. He has relatively good, orthodox technique for a chopper (check my blog, there's a video of him in there somewhere - chopfloat AKA Jimmy Scope).

Danthespearton wrote:
I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent, along with the softness and grippiness of the pips, hence the monster spin variation. And because of that, it also has great control.

What you've described above is... pretty much impossible. A soft sponge doesn't kill incoming spin at all, in fact it makes rubbers more reactive (generally - topsheet obviously makes a difference too).

The FL3 pips are really grippy, yup. And the sponge is super soft. What this does however is make FL3 almost inverted-like. With a thicker sponge especially, FL3 can generate significantly more spin on pushes (and loops) than any other LP I've ever used. Against spin however, it is also much more reactive than even Curl P1-R. This does help to catch some players out, especially those who think they know how to play pimples because "if I push to the LPs I'll be able to hit the next one", but it doesn't offer "monster spin variation" because its reversal is almost non-existent. If you try to chop-block with FL3, it doesn't do much. If you dig a heavy backspin serve into the FL3 with a thicker sponge, it's actually quite difficult to reverse the spin to topspin unless you sideswipe.

Danthespearton wrote:
Also, I already know that FL3 requires active strokes, which brings up the following question; against TOPSPIN ONLY, (loops, drives) does FL3 produce good ACTIVE reversal? I want to be able to create heavy underspin from the first chop and i need to know the answer to this question. I also know that FL3 can add spin to incoming spin and generates its own spin; will these be useful? I dont care about sensitivity to spin. Finally, can i do a loop-chop sequence against my opponent and create very heavy underspin while doing so? Will the inverse spin effect take place, and will i have to use my wrist alot to create heavy underspin? Thanks! (Gee, i really want a response :oops: )

The short answer is: no. As I said above, the reversal on FL3 (especially thicker-sponged) is almost non-existent. Even in heavy spin chop/loop scenarios, the FL3 won't generate anywhere near as much backspin as Curl P1-R or FL2.

Danthespearton wrote:
P.S. I heard that the spin can "top out" in a continuos chop sequence is this true? And would i have to use very fast chopping strokes? This is regarding Feint Long 3 :)

There is a realistic "maximum" backspin you'll be able to get, yes. This applies to all rubbers, not just LPs. You likely won't be able to get near to that with FL3 in most usual environments.

Danthespearton wrote:
And if possible, can someone answer these questions regarding Feint Long 2 as well? XD

FL2 is more of an "all-round" pimple. It's more similar to Curl P1-R than FL3 with how it plays but it's easier to use, easier to control and slightly less extreme, e.g. less spin/reversal.

FL3 is a great LP if you're coming from inverted rubbers. It's also great if you want to get backspin on your pushes to stop players from being able to abuse the usual routine of pushing to pimples to get a float/topspin ball they can attack. It's really easy to roll the ball with too, you can grip the ball beautifully with FL3 especially on thicker sponges.

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SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
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Danthespearton HQ
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 04:32 
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dunc wrote:
Please allow me to cast my opinion on this, which is rather contrary to some of the text you'll see in this post but I think most modern-day users of FL3 will agree with me. I usually play Curl P1-R (in various sponge thicknesses, from 0.5mm to 1.5mm) but I played all of last season with FL3 max sponge.

In addition, one of the most successful choppers in our league uses FL3 0.5mm. I've played against him for probably 100 hours now so I know how his rubber reacts, and a lot of my thoughts below are measured from that. He has relatively good, orthodox technique for a chopper (check my blog, there's a video of him in there somewhere - chopfloat AKA Jimmy Scope).

Danthespearton wrote:
I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent, along with the softness and grippiness of the pips, hence the monster spin variation. And because of that, it also has great control.

What you've described above is... pretty much impossible. A soft sponge doesn't kill incoming spin at all, in fact it makes rubbers more reactive (generally - topsheet obviously makes a difference too).

The FL3 pips are really grippy, yup. And the sponge is super soft. What this does however is make FL3 almost inverted-like. With a thicker sponge especially, FL3 can generate significantly more spin on pushes (and loops) than any other LP I've ever used. Against spin however, it is also much more reactive than even Curl P1-R. This does help to catch some players out, especially those who think they know how to play pimples because "if I push to the LPs I'll be able to hit the next one", but it doesn't offer "monster spin variation" because its reversal is almost non-existent. If you try to chop-block with FL3, it doesn't do much. If you dig a heavy backspin serve into the FL3 with a thicker sponge, it's actually quite difficult to reverse the spin to topspin unless you sideswipe.

Danthespearton wrote:
Also, I already know that FL3 requires active strokes, which brings up the following question; against TOPSPIN ONLY, (loops, drives) does FL3 produce good ACTIVE reversal? I want to be able to create heavy underspin from the first chop and i need to know the answer to this question. I also know that FL3 can add spin to incoming spin and generates its own spin; will these be useful? I dont care about sensitivity to spin. Finally, can i do a loop-chop sequence against my opponent and create very heavy underspin while doing so? Will the inverse spin effect take place, and will i have to use my wrist alot to create heavy underspin? Thanks! (Gee, i really want a response :oops: )

The short answer is: no. As I said above, the reversal on FL3 (especially thicker-sponged) is almost non-existent. Even in heavy spin chop/loop scenarios, the FL3 won't generate anywhere near as much backspin as Curl P1-R or FL2.

Danthespearton wrote:
P.S. I heard that the spin can "top out" in a continuos chop sequence is this true? And would i have to use very fast chopping strokes? This is regarding Feint Long 3 :)

There is a realistic "maximum" backspin you'll be able to get, yes. This applies to all rubbers, not just LPs. You likely won't be able to get near to that with FL3 in most usual environments.

Danthespearton wrote:
And if possible, can someone answer these questions regarding Feint Long 2 as well? XD

FL2 is more of an "all-round" pimple. It's more similar to Curl P1-R than FL3 with how it plays but it's easier to use, easier to control and slightly less extreme, e.g. less spin/reversal.

FL3 is a great LP if you're coming from inverted rubbers. It's also great if you want to get backspin on your pushes to stop players from being able to abuse the usual routine of pushing to pimples to get a float/topspin ball they can attack. It's really easy to roll the ball with too, you can grip the ball beautifully with FL3 especially on thicker sponges.

Thanks a lot for your response, it was quite helpful; I think i'll try out both feint longs! Btw, i read your blog on ooak and saw ur vids on the channels; it was a very enjoyable experience just looking at ur stuff. Just curious, what was your rating 2-3 years ago? And if u can, could you tell me the equivalent of ur rating to the USATT... format (lack of a better term)? Thanks!

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garbol
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 08:59 
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overall still oppenents makes more mistake playing vs P1R than any of feint long

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dunc
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2016, 09:30 
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Danthespearton wrote:
dunc wrote:
Please allow me to cast my opinion on this, which is rather contrary to some of the text you'll see in this post but I think most modern-day users of FL3 will agree with me. I usually play Curl P1-R (in various sponge thicknesses, from 0.5mm to 1.5mm) but I played all of last season with FL3 max sponge.

In addition, one of the most successful choppers in our league uses FL3 0.5mm. I've played against him for probably 100 hours now so I know how his rubber reacts, and a lot of my thoughts below are measured from that. He has relatively good, orthodox technique for a chopper (check my blog, there's a video of him in there somewhere - chopfloat AKA Jimmy Scope).

Danthespearton wrote:
I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent, along with the softness and grippiness of the pips, hence the monster spin variation. And because of that, it also has great control.

What you've described above is... pretty much impossible. A soft sponge doesn't kill incoming spin at all, in fact it makes rubbers more reactive (generally - topsheet obviously makes a difference too).

The FL3 pips are really grippy, yup. And the sponge is super soft. What this does however is make FL3 almost inverted-like. With a thicker sponge especially, FL3 can generate significantly more spin on pushes (and loops) than any other LP I've ever used. Against spin however, it is also much more reactive than even Curl P1-R. This does help to catch some players out, especially those who think they know how to play pimples because "if I push to the LPs I'll be able to hit the next one", but it doesn't offer "monster spin variation" because its reversal is almost non-existent. If you try to chop-block with FL3, it doesn't do much. If you dig a heavy backspin serve into the FL3 with a thicker sponge, it's actually quite difficult to reverse the spin to topspin unless you sideswipe.

Danthespearton wrote:
Also, I already know that FL3 requires active strokes, which brings up the following question; against TOPSPIN ONLY, (loops, drives) does FL3 produce good ACTIVE reversal? I want to be able to create heavy underspin from the first chop and i need to know the answer to this question. I also know that FL3 can add spin to incoming spin and generates its own spin; will these be useful? I dont care about sensitivity to spin. Finally, can i do a loop-chop sequence against my opponent and create very heavy underspin while doing so? Will the inverse spin effect take place, and will i have to use my wrist alot to create heavy underspin? Thanks! (Gee, i really want a response :oops: )

The short answer is: no. As I said above, the reversal on FL3 (especially thicker-sponged) is almost non-existent. Even in heavy spin chop/loop scenarios, the FL3 won't generate anywhere near as much backspin as Curl P1-R or FL2.

Danthespearton wrote:
P.S. I heard that the spin can "top out" in a continuos chop sequence is this true? And would i have to use very fast chopping strokes? This is regarding Feint Long 3 :)

There is a realistic "maximum" backspin you'll be able to get, yes. This applies to all rubbers, not just LPs. You likely won't be able to get near to that with FL3 in most usual environments.

Danthespearton wrote:
And if possible, can someone answer these questions regarding Feint Long 2 as well? XD

FL2 is more of an "all-round" pimple. It's more similar to Curl P1-R than FL3 with how it plays but it's easier to use, easier to control and slightly less extreme, e.g. less spin/reversal.

FL3 is a great LP if you're coming from inverted rubbers. It's also great if you want to get backspin on your pushes to stop players from being able to abuse the usual routine of pushing to pimples to get a float/topspin ball they can attack. It's really easy to roll the ball with too, you can grip the ball beautifully with FL3 especially on thicker sponges.

Thanks a lot for your response, it was quite helpful; I think i'll try out both feint longs! Btw, i read your blog on ooak and saw ur vids on the channels; it was a very enjoyable experience just looking at ur stuff. Just curious, what was your rating 2-3 years ago? And if u can, could you tell me the equivalent of ur rating to the USATT... format (lack of a better term)? Thanks!

Thanks mate, very kind.

I have only been playing 4 years (in September). 2 years ago I was in Division 2 of my local league and I'd estimate my ability then at around 1400 USATT.

Now I'd suggest I'm around 1800, possibly a little higher when I'm playing well?

I'm not sure though as we have no similar rating system in the UK. I think it would be easier for one of our 2000+ US guys to estimate my rating if any of those are around.

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My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtazeX ... oICGS9bqNg
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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
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LordCope
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2016, 03:38 
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Danthespearton wrote:
I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent


I don't know what an "anti soft sponge" is. FL3 does have a soft sponge, but it is very responsive to spin. When I went from Dornenglanz to FL3, the difference was absolutely huge.

On the other hand, I found that I could play aggressive shots with FL3 and treat it almost as a SP or inverted.

A two-edge sword... it's possible to generate your own spin, which gives you a tactical advantage against most people's anti-LP game. On the other hand, it's much harder to use, and requires a much better reading and handling of spin.

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Japsican
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2016, 07:22 
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LordCope wrote:
Danthespearton wrote:
I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent


I don't know what an "anti soft sponge" is. FL3 does have a soft sponge, but it is very responsive to spin. When I went from Dornenglanz to FL3, the difference was absolutely huge.

On the other hand, I found that I could play aggressive shots with FL3 and treat it almost as a SP or inverted.

A two-edge sword... it's possible to generate your own spin, which gives you a tactical advantage against most people's anti-LP game. On the other hand, it's much harder to use, and requires a much better reading and handling of spin.


Spot on description LC.

FL3 has a butter soft sponge. Traditionally, antis had a butter soft energy absorbing sponge and I think that's what the OP is referring to. But just like you said, soft sponge gave the LP a lot of grip making it play SP-ish.

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Danthespearton HQ
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2016, 09:42 
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Japsican wrote:
LordCope wrote:
Danthespearton wrote:
I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent


I don't know what an "anti soft sponge" is. FL3 does have a soft sponge, but it is very responsive to spin. When I went from Dornenglanz to FL3, the difference was absolutely huge.

On the other hand, I found that I could play aggressive shots with FL3 and treat it almost as a SP or inverted.

A two-edge sword... it's possible to generate your own spin, which gives you a tactical advantage against most people's anti-LP game. On the other hand, it's much harder to use, and requires a much better reading and handling of spin.


Spot on description LC.

FL3 has a butter soft sponge. Traditionally, antis had a butter soft energy absorbing sponge and I think that's what the OP is referring to. But just like you said, soft sponge gave the LP a lot of grip making it play SP-ish.

Yup, that's what I meant by an "anti soft sponge;" in that case, I think I might settle for feint long 2 0.5 on a Pete Korbel blade. What do you guys think?

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dunc
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2016, 17:42 
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Nothing wrong with FL2 if you're learning to chop. Once you get to a good standard though, Curl P1-R at 0.5mm will be a little bit more difficult to use but offer noticeably greater backspin.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
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Danthespearton HQ
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2016, 00:18 
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dunc wrote:
Nothing wrong with FL2 if you're learning to chop. Once you get to a good standard though, Curl P1-R at 0.5mm will be a little bit more difficult to use but offer noticeably greater backspin.

Thanks for that note! And one laaaast question, which feint chops heavier and spinnier? (Both technically the same thing lol)

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dunc
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2016, 03:02 
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If you're referring to chops, against mild spin the FL3 may be able to generate more backspin... but against anything heavier, the FL2 will be noticeably heavier.

Over the table on pushes, FL3 every day.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
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Danthespearton HQ
PostPosted: 10 Jul 2016, 06:00 
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dunc wrote:
If you're referring to chops, against mild spin the FL3 may be able to generate more backspin... but against anything heavier, the FL2 will be noticeably heavier.

Over the table on pushes, FL3 every day.

Thanks! Hope u get better and better. And to everyone else as well.

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Danthespearton HQ
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2016, 12:17 
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Ok, so, hello everyone, I'm back! :devil: Lol, sorry if I terrified you ;) , anyways, I've developed ny chopping more and more, and as of now, this is what my chop basically is. I wait for the ball to bounce and drop somewhere around table level (sometimes 2-3 inches above table level), then i swing down diagonally (maybe 3-5 degrees more horizontal than a 45 degree angle swing). Prior to the chop, I bring my hand up to my left shoulder with the face of my paddle being next to my ear (as everyone says it should be) with a bent elbow which is located in the middle of my body. My body is almost parralel to the edge of the table in front of me, although slightly facing towards my left. My weight transfer goes from slightly more pressure on my left leg to my right leg during the swing. My knees are obviously bent, and the paddle goes down to my right knee. I do it with inverted rubber with a very aggresive stroke, although I am wondering if I should do it slower. This is when I am chopping against topspin. Am I doing it right? Obviously this would not be the right post to ask this in, but Im in a hurry, sorry about that guys, really am :sweat: Can someone plz help? And what kind of Long pimple rubber would this stroke suit? I am currently in need of help, as i don't have access to coaching and i can't find anything online :(

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dunc
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2016, 16:39 
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BH: Victas P1V (1.5mm)
Danthespearton wrote:
Ok, so, hello everyone, I'm back! :devil: Lol, sorry if I terrified you ;) , anyways, I've developed ny chopping more and more, and as of now, this is what my chop basically is. I wait for the ball to bounce and drop somewhere around table level (sometimes 2-3 inches above table level), then i swing down diagonally (maybe 3-5 degrees more horizontal than a 45 degree angle swing). Prior to the chop, I bring my hand up to my left shoulder with the face of my paddle being next to my ear (as everyone says it should be) with a bent elbow which is located in the middle of my body. My body is almost parralel to the edge of the table in front of me, although slightly facing towards my left. My weight transfer goes from slightly more pressure on my left leg to my right leg during the swing. My knees are obviously bent, and the paddle goes down to my right knee. I do it with inverted rubber with a very aggresive stroke, although I am wondering if I should do it slower. This is when I am chopping against topspin. Am I doing it right? Obviously this would not be the right post to ask this in, but Im in a hurry, sorry about that guys, really am :sweat: Can someone plz help? And what kind of Long pimple rubber would this stroke suit? I am currently in need of help, as i don't have access to coaching and i can't find anything online :(

Here you go... :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgUTnMh0FV8

What you describe sounds right, but you can't go wrong with the PingSkills video.

I would suggest trying to video yourself and compare it against the above.

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[Other gear I've used]
Blades: Butterfly Defence 3, Butterfly Defence Pro, Butterfly Innerforce ZLC, Butterfly Innershield, DHS Power G7, Stiga Offensive Classic Carbon
SPs: Friendship 802 (1.5), TSP Spectol (1.3, 1.8, 2.1), TSP Spectol Speed (1.3), TSP Super Spinpips Chop Sponge 2 (0.5, 1.3)
LPs: Butterfly Feint Long II (1), Butterfly Feint Long III (0.5, 1.3), Tibhar Grass D.TecS (OX), TSP Curl P1-R (0.5, 1, 1.3), TSP Curl P4 (1.3)
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Danthespearton HQ
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2016, 19:53 
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FH: Victas VS > 401
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dunc wrote:
Danthespearton wrote:
Ok, so, hello everyone, I'm back! :devil: Lol, sorry if I terrified you ;) , anyways, I've developed ny chopping more and more, and as of now, this is what my chop basically is. I wait for the ball to bounce and drop somewhere around table level (sometimes 2-3 inches above table level), then i swing down diagonally (maybe 3-5 degrees more horizontal than a 45 degree angle swing). Prior to the chop, I bring my hand up to my left shoulder with the face of my paddle being next to my ear (as everyone says it should be) with a bent elbow which is located in the middle of my body. My body is almost parralel to the edge of the table in front of me, although slightly facing towards my left. My weight transfer goes from slightly more pressure on my left leg to my right leg during the swing. My knees are obviously bent, and the paddle goes down to my right knee. I do it with inverted rubber with a very aggresive stroke, although I am wondering if I should do it slower. This is when I am chopping against topspin. Am I doing it right? Obviously this would not be the right post to ask this in, but Im in a hurry, sorry about that guys, really am :sweat: Can someone plz help? And what kind of Long pimple rubber would this stroke suit? I am currently in need of help, as i don't have access to coaching and i can't find anything online :(

Here you go... :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgUTnMh0FV8

What you describe sounds right, but you can't go wrong with the PingSkills video.

I would suggest trying to video yourself and compare it against the above.

Wow, thanks dunc! I actually saw this vid for such a long time but after seeing it again for a long time, I can see that im at least on track. Thanks!

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Blade: Victas Koji Matsushita Offensive FL
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peterpong
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2016, 03:12 
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Danthespearton wrote:
So... sorry to awaken a really old thread guys :'( but i just wanted to know for future reference. I heard that FL3 has an anti soft sponge underneath, which kills any incoming spin from my opponent, along with the softness and grippiness of the pips, hence the monster spin variation. And because of that, it also has great control. First off, if i were to get this rubber in 0.5, what characteristics should my blade have? (This is in the long run, assuming i make it that far. I can backhand choo pretty well now, pretty deep and spinny.) Should the blade have flex? Soft or hard? Stiff or not? Also, I already know that FL3 requires active strokes, which brings up the following question; against TOPSPIN ONLY, (loops, drives) does FL3 produce good ACTIVE reversal? I want to be able to create heavy underspin from the first chop and i need to know the answer to this question. I also know that FL3 can add spin to incoming spin and generates its own spin; will these be useful? I dont care about sensitivity to spin. Finally, can i do a loop-chop sequence against my opponent and create very heavy underspin while doing so? Will the inverse spin effect take place, and will i have to use my wrist alot to create heavy underspin? Thanks! (Gee, i really want a response :oops: )

P.S. I heard that the spin can "top out" in a continuos chop sequence is this true? And would i have to use very fast chopping strokes? This is regarding Feint Long 3 :)
And if possible, can someone answer these questions regarding Feint Long 2 as well? XD


I have just received loads of l/ps through the post from a coach.i have tried the feint long 11 in 0.5mm.this seems very nice and i can chop and do backhand loop.it plays like an inverted.i did try 1mm but found this a little fast.i used this on a very old butterfly blade(wood).im not a long pip user but i may go for this as it also kills some spin i believe.tried the p4 but the ball just popped up on the chop

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