OOAK Table Tennis Forum

This post may not make me overly popular, but I feel the need to make it.

I've been reading some of the recent posts on OoaK recently, and wonder whether some are going too far.

My personal standpoint is, and hpoefully always will be, that the rules are the rules and whether I agree with them or not I will comply. Lobby for change, yes, but comply in the meantime.

This sense of fair play was instilled into me by my parents, teachers and, as far as TT is concerned my coaches. I am teaching young children to play the game and hope that they will learn to play hard but fair- to be fiercely competitively but not to win at all costs.

Some recent threads, especially but not exclusively 'Treating Anti' and 'Treating frictioned LPs' have, IMO, stepped over a line and are discussions of cheating treatments with a real focus on how detectable they are and where they can be obtained. It sticks in the throat for me a little. Some posters are clearly looking for ways to cheat without being caught. If you reply about ITTF sanctioned events or otherwise......there is a 'spirit of the law' argument that I subscribe to.........

IMO It is a real shame for several reasons. Firstly OoaK is a fantastic source of legitimate advice - both for inverted and 'other' types of player. Secondly, as they develop, I'd like to be able to refer my 'pupils' here (3 of whom are my own children), but can't whilst this sort of garbage is going on. Finally - and this is not for my benefit - many players have a dim view of LP/junk rubber players anyway; unjustified in my opinion; but this sort of crap being in the public domain will not do you any favours.

To just be clear; speed glueing was just before my time, I suspect it would suit my game (forehand at least) immensely; but I wouldn't use TT or other products even at local league level, or tuner/boosters, because in the spirit of the rules it is clearly wrong.

Please post a reply whether you agree with me or not- I am intrigued as to the general concensus. I like it here, but really dislike some recent activity.

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Timo Boll ALC ST
FH Tibhar Evolution MX-P Max
BH Tibhar Evolution FX-S 1.8
185g

I agree. Thanks for the reality check. Apparently not all modifications/treatments are against the rules, but some clearly are or at least violate the spirit of the rules.

On the other hand, I do appreciate knowing what others are doing to cheat. I'm usually a bit naive about such things. I'm quite new to competitive TT but from my experience with many other sports I've found the incredible efforts that some take to cheat is more an issue of personality than actual effectiveness toward gaining an edge.

But even when cheating works, I think it better to lose with a clear conscience.

 

 

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Giant Dragon Kris Special : RITC 802 w/Dawei 2.2 35d fh : : Donic Blue Fire M3 2.0 black bh
Member of Charlotte Table Tennis Club, Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
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I guess I'd say that even though I myself wouldn't find much satisfaction in playing with equipment that violates rules, I don't mind seeing discussions of it, especially since such discussions are specifically confined to "member" sections of the forum (which I think this discussion thread should be as well, if it can be relocated). To me, it's interesting to see what people are doing and to understand how they're doing it and who's doing it. I'm not the kind of player who'd ever challenge someone else's equipment at a tournament unless there was something really extreme going on (I'd rather just try to beat them with my legal equipment), but I'm sure there are others who would, and it's useful to gain an understanding of how such equipment looks, feels and works. In addition, although I think it's silly and distasteful to play with equipment that violates rules, I don't think it's morally wrong or anything like that; it's just a game, and people are entitled to their choices in my view -- but, of course, if those choices violate rules, someone else (though, as I said, not me) is totally entitled to call them on it.

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I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX

[quote="TraditionalTradesman"especially since such discussions are specifically confined to "member" sections of the forum (which I think this discussion thread should be as well, if it can be relocated)[/quote]

I did not realise this was the case, so would be happy for the thread to be relocated. That said, it doesn't take too much to become a member, so I don't see how this affects my argument.

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Timo Boll ALC ST
FH Tibhar Evolution MX-P Max
BH Tibhar Evolution FX-S 1.8
185g

Thanks for your honestly so_devo!

I certainly don't endorse cheating either, and neither should the forum. This was the main reason to make this section at least 'members only', and in a dedicated section that made it clear that it's NOT for competition or ITTF events. Remember that for non-ITTF events it's actually not even illegal nor is it cheating, so you can play with any tuned rubber that you enjoy.

I did play during the 'speed glue' and love to experiment and muck around, even though I don't use it for competition, so this is why I find this section interesting.

The purpose of the section was discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10500

However this is a good discussion, and perhaps we should consider again whether this section should have a place on this forum.

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

I predict very soon, there will be an article claiming Haggisv endorse cheating, by, you know who.

Thanks for the responses; discussion is healthy after all.........although I don't entirely agree with all 'counter arguments'........

I really don't want to quote posts from the original threads and name names, suffice to say if the posters are more worried about whether a product makes a rubber matt or glossy, and therefore detectable, I'd suggest that they are looking to use it in places where the jurisdiction may not appreciate it. Also the discussion about buying treated sponges, and where to get them - not good in my eyes.

For the record (again) I don't approve of speedglue/boosters, whether tt products or household products. And whilst I agree there was uproar about the ban, I believe the majority of players stopped a common practice and complied (eventually?), even at non ITTF events.

SP, without taking offence at your post I'd just state I have never seen such detailed discussion about boosting/gluing AND trying to avoid detection. These thread found new depths. I personally raised this thread and I would be equally abject about a gluing thread. I do appreciate your humorous attempt to implicate Haggisv though

For my final point I'm on dodgy ground, but will proceed anyway. I only play local leagues as do, I would imagine, the majority of forumites. In the UK leagues have adopted differing stances and/or strictness of enforcement, but my point is about the spirit of the laws - of sport itself - would stop this sort of stuff. And speed gluing.

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Timo Boll ALC ST
FH Tibhar Evolution MX-P Max
BH Tibhar Evolution FX-S 1.8
185g

Well that makes one of you evidence destroyed

Apart from my own interest in this section for experimental reasons, one reason I proposed setting up this section is that these topics were discussed on occasions already (although perhaps not to the same depth). Even though people were only using these rubbers for casual play, the discussion often turned sour as people called them cheaters. So by have a seperate section, that does make it clear where it is and isn't legal, I hoped this would be prevented.

Anyway I totally respect your view, and I'm very open any changes we can make to address these issues...

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OOAK Table Tennis Shop | Re-Impact Blades | Butterfly Table Tennis bats
Setup1: Re-Impact Smart, Viper OX, Victas VS 401 Setup2: Re-Impact Barath, Dtecs OX, TSP Triple Spin Chop 1.0mm Setup3: Re-Impact Dark Knight, Hellfire OX, 999 Turbo
Recent Articles: Butterfly Tenergy Alternatives | Tenergy Rubbers Compared | Re-Impact User Guide

By Voldemort?



I agree with this, and as much as I want to follow the rules, and DO follow the rules, it's still interesting reading all of the ways that people use to get around these barriers.

Actually the section is doing its job perfectly creating discussion on the forum...which is what we are here for.

I don't think there would be anyone here who would happily break the particular rule set they play under, whether it be ITTF or some other. I was brought up in a similar fashion to you so_devo. However, I do like to read about what I consider to be the "fun" side of TT equipment as opposed to the "serious" side we discuss in other sections. Talking about whether something could be detected or not is all part of the fun. Its not offensive. It only becomes offensive when actually put into place to break the rules with its use. If I buy a sports car that can do 300km/h (yeah I wish) and talk about how fast it can go, that's fun. If I go out on the public highway and do it, then I deserve to have my car taken away. That's reality!

I think by "ring-fencing" the section and making it clear what its for is much better than leaving the discussions unsaid and having people feel the only way they can get the fun out of it is to not speak of it but do it where they shouldn't. Better to speak of shooting someone and get it off the chest than bottle it up and then actually shoot them LOL.

Now given I had a hand in the idea for the section, as did Haggisv and others, it may be said we are simply defending the idea. But I think its the other way around, the idea came about due to a need. And now that need is being served. I think thats a good thing!

And I do think this thread should be moved into the section. While not hard to become a member of the forum to read it (and I also would hope people do not come just for the section), it keeps it properly "ring-fenced" and maintains its integrity.

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Just to expand on what I said before, I think there's a difference between the kind of serious cheating that can occur in a work environment, e.g., corporate espionage, or cheating on a significant exam, e.g., a college entrance exam, and the kind of cheating that can occur in a game like table tennis, where, for most of us, there's really not much beyond ego at stake. Unless we're pros, we play simply because we enjoy it and want to be good at it. If you violate rules in the real world, that can be unethical or illegal. If you intentionally violate the rules of a game, to me, that's just silly and pathetic. Why play if you're going to break the rules? Just to win? Okay, good job; you won by cheating. Are you really going to be proud of yourself for that? You can disagree with the rules and think they don't make sense in some cases (as many of us do), but actually breaking the rules seems childish to me.

Having said that, I also believe -- as I said above -- that even assuming that we're talking about more than just using illegal equipment for practice or just using it in non-ITTF-governed events, the "Experimental" section discussions are, at the very worst, discussions about cheating in a game rather than about cheating in a potentially life-altering context, so I don't see them as being particularly troubling. Rather, they're educational to me because they give me a better understanding of how people try to alter their equipment, what effect they're trying to achieve, etc. I'm sure there are others who see such discussions more as practical how-to tips, but that's their business, and I'm okay with it.

_________________
I. Re-Impact Tachi Plus 2019; FH: Nittaku FastArc G-1 1.4mm; BH: Saviga 77 Monster OX
II. Re-Impact Turbo; FH: Spinlord Sandwind 1.5mm; BH: DMS Kamikaze OX
III. Re-Impact Smart; FH: TSP Spinpips RED 2.1mm; BH: Dr. Neubauer Gangster OX
IV. Sauer & Troger Firestarter; FH: Spinlord Waran 1.8mm; BH: Giant Dragon Snowflake OX

I agree with most of what so_devo says, but especially this:

These players look for an unfair advantage. The perfect cheat is their goal, and that's the beginning and the end of their interest. If a treatment is not undetectable, it is not interesting.

By all means, look for effective treatments, but don't ever ask for the detectability of it, as this only means that it will be used unfairly. There is no alternative use for undetectability, is there? If someone does pursuit undetectability, they brand themselves as nothing short of cheats. And it is there for all to see and judge by.

Yes, I agree. A healthy discussion, this.

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NITTAKU SEPTEAR cpen | FH: 729 802, 1.5, black | RPB: CORNILLEAU PILOT POWER, 2.0, red
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I guess with many Brab, looking for non-detection would indicate an intention to cheat with it. But I do believe there is a certain satisfaction to be gained in designing/concocting something that would pass all the tests but not be used due to the integrity of the maker. ie, the challenge to do it being the goal, not the cheating with it. For many I guess going past this point would be irresistible. Depends on your outlook I guess. But this would be one of the few things you could meet the challenge on without actually having to use it to prove it, unlike something like perfecting the greatest computer hack of all time or cracking the security of the biggest bank vault in the world where you'd actually have to do it to prove you could.

For some, just knowing you can meet the challenge is enough. For others, they would never see how that could BE enough.

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

I don't agree with cheating at all, but as for the section...Adham has said on here (search it) he believes many players are cheating. I found the point about knowing what to look for ineresting. I think laws that are unenforceable should not be in place as it disadvantages the honest and there is a place for a discussion on the subject.

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Another one bites the dust.