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There seems to be trend that the short pimple rubbers are getting more and more grippy, with wide, rough, conical and soft pimples (ehg 802-40, 889-2). These rubbers feel very nice to play with, you can do almost anything with it.

Now I see the main advantage of short pimpled rubber is it's insensitivity to incoming spin, but by manufacturers making these rubbers more and more grippy, are they losing this advantage?

Would love to hear some feedback from any short pip players on this...

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Well, in my experience, i'd say that 802-40 is definately slightly (though not a huge amount) more sensitive to spin than something like Spectol, an almost spinless short pip. With the less sensitive ones, you also get a lot more 'wobble' and are even able to reverse the spin of loops a little when blocking. With the grippy ones this isn't quite as easy or effective, but they are better for getting the ball up (i.e. from service, etc.)

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First things first, but not neccessarily in that order.

I also have tried short pimples (When I say you I have tried everything )

But there were old versions as the speedy soft , challenger attack or the baxter: intersting for blocking and hitting as they are fast.
But he negative point was pushing: it resulted on a ball with small effect, easy for the opponent and as I was unable to attack everything, I sometime need to push: bad idea because they attack immediately on the return.

Some year ago, I tried a Andro Logo: a tensor one: quite strange to play with a kind of double speed effect. It gives a bit more spin (just a bit) but may be slow on some balls and fast on others.

So I was disapointed for the lack of effect I could give.

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Blade : Tibhar COS3
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I tried Logo also and at least for my penhold forehand it was disappointing as it was hard to put spin on the ball. For blocking, hitting and variation on a shakehand backhand it could work well if someone wanted something less spinny.

There are some short pips that I'd call "sticky" with the Stiga Radical being the first. Also Dawei 388-B, Andro Revolution COR pips and Butterfly Raystorm seem to fit into this category.

The pips on these are grippy enough that you can serve, push and flip like you would with inverted. The drawback seems to be you have a lot more sensitivity to incoming spin and have to adjust your bat angle more on blocks, sort of like sticky Chinese inverted.

I haven't tried my sheet of Royal yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it fits into the same category. I think these pips are good on forehand and for someone transitioning from inverted but they won't have the same advantages as regular short pips for blocking and hitting through spin.

-- Andrew

I got some experience with various short pimple rubbers :

1. Dr Neubauer Pistol
This is a very different SP rubber from the rest. The sponge is very soft with a thin soft topsheet. I received the rubber from mail order and found the rubber to be dented. Only after three weeks to give flat surface.

It is very light and spinny, by far the spinnest SP I have tried. It suits more on harder blades, such as carbon, but the speed may be too slow for a wood or other softer blades.

Sometimes, I just use it as if a reverse rubber. Moreover, it is the lightest even a lot lighter than Stiga Innova Ultra Light.

This rubber needs not any glue, actually cannot use glue, as it comes with a stick layer like a sticky tape. However, the stickiness would not lose even after 10 or more times taken off and put on.

2. Stiga Royal
It is soft but fast. Very good spin as well. Don't really need speed glue.

3. RITC 802-40 with 35 degree sponge.
A soft but fast rubber with good feel and spin. It is only of my favourite apart from the strange Pistol.

4. Butterfly FlareStorm.
Harder and very fast. Not that spinny. Best to be on softer blade.

5. Butterfly Challenger.
Not as hard as Flarestorm nor as fast. Not my favourite.

6. TSP Superpips.
Medium hardness, quite spinny but not very good feel. Medium weight.

7. Butterfly Westwill.
Not common found. Very soft sponge and slower but topsheet is also soft and spinny. May be good for chop. Blocking is too slow until one's stroke is ultra powerful. A bit harder sponge may be better.

8. RITC 563 with 35 degree spongy.

Good feel and even faster and spinny than 802-40.

9. DHS Dragon and Sharpen
Harder sponge and Topsheet. Not much feeling.

10. Stiga Radical.
Rubbish. Rubber came off after a few gentle rubs. Hard and not spinny. Preferred Royal.

11. RITC 799 with MRS.

Quite spinny. Topsheet is harder than 802-40 or 563.

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Played also some more medium and long pips but leave it to other forum.

I will imagine a Dr Neubauer Pistol topsheet with a RTIC 802-40 sponge or Stiga Royal sponge.

It may be the ideal SP for me, being light, fast and spinny.

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Forgot about Joola Tango Ultra which I have played the longest time.
Quite bouncy and spinny but the grip is getting less over time. Blocking loops can be effective with fast return. Control may be a bit less than 802-40. Have to speed glue when the rubber is old and aged to get back the speed. A medium weight rubber. Preferred RITC802-40 on most aspects including cheaper price. May be even faster than Stiga Royal. Hard to control if stick on a hard blade. Just too fast to react.

Thanks for the thorough reviews. I actually found 799's topsheet much softer than either 802-40's or 563. I wonder if you got an old sheet. I could never get as much spin as with 802-40 with it for some reason.

Of the rubbers I've tried, I like Joola Tango Ultra the best though it does wear out after about 2 months. Also sometimes I get a sheet that doesn't have tension built-in so I have to speedglue it. I went down to 1.8 sponge from 2.0 and still seem to get plenty of speed and spin and much better control, so if the speed is bothering you maybe try thinner sponge.

802-40 seems very similar except a little harder topsheet and sponge. 889-2 has the softer sponge and topsheet, but you need to be careful when gluing it or using Ecolo Expander not to delaminate the topsheet.

Another similar rubber to Joola Tango Ultra (JTU) is Andro Revolution COR pips. The topsheet is almost sticky, like Stiga Radical or Dawei 388B. At first the sponge felt hard but after gluing it it softened up. YOu can get a lot more spin on serves, pushes and flips but the down side is that you have to adjust your racket angle more to deal with spin so it isn't quite as good for blocking as JTU/802-40/889-2. Dawei 388B is similar but comes with a softer sponge and no tension built in so needs glue.

Raystorm (the softer sponge version of Flarestorm) was the only Japanese rubber I tried that was as spinny as the above, but the throw angle was higher and the sponge was harder than JTU. I used it in 2.1 and didn't like it, but I did like 1.9 on the right blade, which would be softer and lower throw angle than the Joola Guo 3C I use now.

Nittaku Hammond FA wasn't as spinny as Raystorm or the other rubbers above but worked well on a hard, low throw angle blade. It has a very thin topsheet so feels softer than the sponge would indicate, sort of like Supersonic/Makss/Terminator. It's pips which have a wide base and narrow suddenly are good for a hitter and a nice upgrade from the harder sponge Yasaka T-Original.

I've got a sheet of Stiga Royale I haven't tried yet, maybe I will eventually, though JTU works well enough I don't feel the need to switch. is it a sticky pips rubber like Radical? What is the throw angle like? Any tension built-in or does it need to be speed glued?

Has anyone tried Butterfly Speedy P.O. Soft, especially in the 1.7 thickness? It advertises a lower throw angle than Raystorm, though it still has the vertically oriented pips typical of Japanese sheets, like Raystorm, Hammond FA, T-Original which usually mean a higher throw angle than the horizontally oriented pips like JTU, 802-40, 889-2, 388B, COR pips.

The big advantage of Pistol, from what I've heard is the "weird" effect when blocking. While the rubbers above will give a flat ball, they aren't "weird." What is the pip orientation and throw angle of Pistol like? Is the topsheet at all similar to DHS Sharping, which is also supposed to have a "weird" effect?

-- Andrew

I will soon test a Mystery 802-40 and a DHS652 in the forehand first.

_________________
Blade : Tibhar COS3
Forehand: Moon Pro 2.0
Backhand: Neubauer Desperado Ox
****
http://www.diabolosyl.net (my own site)
http://www.tennis-de-table.com (biggest forum in France)

I've never tried DHS 652, so I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. I'm also intrigued by the "mystery" 802-40. The only thing I didn't like about 802-40 was that its harder topsheet and sponge felt too hard on my blade.

Blade and style makes a big difference, so if you (and others) could let us know what blade you use and how you use your short pips.

Personally I'm a pips out Chinese style penholder with inverted on the backhand. I'm using the very hard, fairly fast Joola Guo 3C blade.

I started playing Japanese style penhold with inverted so I tend to loop to open the point and finish with a smash once I get into a topspin exchange.

My blocking has improved, but I wouldn't call it a major part of my game.

-- Andrew

I will probably try on several blade.
First on the Tibhar Techno Power with the Monster on the other side, then probably on the Cos3 (a defense blade) and I will soon order a French combi blade (balsa on one side quite slow and a carbon layer for the forehand).

So I will try them on these.

I will give you my impressions after the tests.

_________________
Blade : Tibhar COS3
Forehand: Moon Pro 2.0
Backhand: Neubauer Desperado Ox
****
http://www.diabolosyl.net (my own site)
http://www.tennis-de-table.com (biggest forum in France)

Hmm, I've used both, and I guess weirdness can start small. I threw out the Sharping in the end (I couldn't use it due to a lack of low gears v my over the table game skills- for me 802-40 was much better), so I can't compare the pips to Pistol.

I didn't like pistol because it seems to have two very distinct gears, fast and slow, and I found it hard to manage/predict the sudden gear changes. I'm sure familarity would eventually solve this, but it's not a rubber to slap on a blade and instantly play well with.

Yes, in counter rallies it did offer some weirdness, but I didn't see this appear at low and medium speed, and the penality of the weirdness is slightly reduced ball path predictability.

Pistol is a strange rubber (or at least it has a strange "sponge" -double sided adhesive stuff you'd normally use for mounting things inside a computer, or to a wall), and for the right game style I'm sure it would mess up opponents nicely.

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Westwill is actually a 44mm ball rubber.

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Yes, so the pips are a tad wider and more widely spaced.

I imagine the easist short pips to chop with would be a smaller, more densely packed design, perhaps like Nittaku's PimpleMini (though these don't appear to be all that dense from the web photo). Such a design would create more grippy pip sides/shoulders to engage the ball during chops, but still be reasonble non-reactive to spin when flat hitting.

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"Westwill" is for 44mm balls?

Where can we find 44mm balls? Will it be the next standard?

People are playing faster and faster and need a bigger jump from 40-44mm! Last time, we had 38mm to 40mm.

I may take a close up photo of Pistol.

It is weired in the sense that it is not fast by itself but can be fast if one apply some speed to the blade. I would say, gear 2 and gear 4 for a 5/6 gear manual.

Some times, it is so spinny and something nothing or floating.

When playing softly, the opponent is difficult to bounce the ball off passively as it lacks momentum and often goes down to net. This is effective especially one applies strong backspin and short stroke to the ball.

When one plays close to table, les than 50cm, high speed smashing and looping is possible as the rubber is spinny.

The down side is that Pistol takes spin like other reverse rubber and isn't as effective for blocking as other SP, such as JTU, 802-40, etc.

It is be best to be on harder carbo blades to get up speed.

It is definitely powerless off table.

I don't know if Dr N would make Pistol MkII that people can glue to speed it up. Or the glue may dissolve the sponge?

Definitely worth a try if not before.

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"I've got a sheet of Stiga Royale I haven't tried yet, maybe I will eventually, though JTU works well enough I don't feel the need to switch. is it a sticky pips rubber like Radical? What is the throw angle like? Any tension built-in or does it need to be speed glued?"

Royale is a muce better SP frmo Stiga. The sponge is softer but bouncy. I don't think speed glue is necessary unless one is a slow blade.
The topsheet is also quite soft. I hope it would not wear and tear as much as JTU. This is my replacement for JTU.

This is also the third JTU I have. It is new and still spinny and bouncy. The two older one slow down a lot and lost spin. It ages quickly. I don't mind it when new.

Radical is terrible for me. Got some dirt of light color stuck on it and very hard to make it clean. I tried to rub off the dirt with my fingers and small rubber particles started to come off. There are more and more and, eventually, I used a TT ball to rub off the rubber surface making it shorter. The ball got deformed due to heat and the rubber topsheet got melted. It becomes even sticker.

Useless rubber. Sponge is also harder. Don't waste money on it. Try Royale if one wants Stiga.

I don't understand why people want sticky/tacky rubbers. It is wasting people's energy. It makes balls go slower but not necessarily spinner due to lack of momentum. The ball won't fall after a few seconds when the blade is reverse. What for?

RTIC Geospin Tacky, Hurricane, etc? These rubbers are better and faster when the sticky layer worn out.
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