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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007, 15:39 
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For serves and pushes, it's a lot easier to get heavy spin with tacky rubbers. That's the main reason I use them...

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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007, 21:02 
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There's no plan to move to the 44mm ball generlly. There are leagues in Japan who use it (often for older folks) along with a higher net and short pips only. It's supposed to be longer rallies and good exercise.

-- Andrew


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2007, 22:05 
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Small mistake, it is a DHS 651 I have and not a 652.
At first sight, they are quiet different: the pimples of the 651 are longer than these of the 802.40. There is more space between them on the 652, they seems to be grippier and bend easely.
The sponge of the 651 if yellow and soft the Mystery is cream, quite soft (not as much as the 651) and is supposed to be energy storage.

Next step: try them on a blade ;-)

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PostPosted: 13 Apr 2007, 00:38 
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I briefly hit with 651 and I recall the pips were small and stiff. Seemed like it would be good for hitting and blocking, not so good for spinning.

651 probably would work very well for those moving from long pips who want an attacking game with very flat hits and some deception on blocks.

651 didn't work well for me as I prefer a very spinny short pip, soft and wide as I was moving from inverted and still have some habits from that.

-- Andrew


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2007, 09:52 
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I've tried the 652, dragonow and sharping from DHS and I can say that their pips offer very little feeling as most of the combinations are too hard (topsheet and sponge). The topsheets on each of them are fairly hard and the sponge used is around 42-45 ish degrees which makes it feel very stiff and spinless. Out of their whole range the dragonow is the only decent playing one as its pips offer a tad more grip than the other 2. 652 is a oldschool pip and its been around for ages. Very classical in feel but the pips are a tad taller than normal shortpips.


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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 07:15 
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agooding2 wrote:
Thanks for the thorough reviews. I actually found 799's topsheet much softer than either 802-40's or 563. I wonder if you got an old sheet. I could never get as much spin as with 802-40 with it for some reason.

Of the rubbers I've tried, I like Joola Tango Ultra the best though it does wear out after about 2 months. Also sometimes I get a sheet that doesn't have tension built-in so I have to speedglue it. I went down to 1.8 sponge from 2.0 and still seem to get plenty of speed and spin and much better control, so if the speed is bothering you maybe try thinner sponge.

802-40 seems very similar except a little harder topsheet and sponge. 889-2 has the softer sponge and topsheet, but you need to be careful when gluing it or using Ecolo Expander not to delaminate the topsheet.

Another similar rubber to Joola Tango Ultra (JTU) is Andro Revolution COR pips. The topsheet is almost sticky, like Stiga Radical or Dawei 388B. At first the sponge felt hard but after gluing it it softened up. YOu can get a lot more spin on serves, pushes and flips but the down side is that you have to adjust your racket angle more to deal with spin so it isn't quite as good for blocking as JTU/802-40/889-2. Dawei 388B is similar but comes with a softer sponge and no tension built in so needs glue.

Raystorm (the softer sponge version of Flarestorm) was the only Japanese rubber I tried that was as spinny as the above, but the throw angle was higher and the sponge was harder than JTU. I used it in 2.1 and didn't like it, but I did like 1.9 on the right blade, which would be softer and lower throw angle than the Joola Guo 3C I use now.

Nittaku Hammond FA wasn't as spinny as Raystorm or the other rubbers above but worked well on a hard, low throw angle blade. It has a very thin topsheet so feels softer than the sponge would indicate, sort of like Supersonic/Makss/Terminator. It's pips which have a wide base and narrow suddenly are good for a hitter and a nice upgrade from the harder sponge Yasaka T-Original.

I've got a sheet of Stiga Royale I haven't tried yet, maybe I will eventually, though JTU works well enough I don't feel the need to switch. is it a sticky pips rubber like Radical? What is the throw angle like? Any tension built-in or does it need to be speed glued?

Has anyone tried Butterfly Speedy P.O. Soft, especially in the 1.7 thickness? It advertises a lower throw angle than Raystorm, though it still has the vertically oriented pips typical of Japanese sheets, like Raystorm, Hammond FA, T-Original which usually mean a higher throw angle than the horizontally oriented pips like JTU, 802-40, 889-2, 388B, COR pips.

The big advantage of Pistol, from what I've heard is the "weird" effect when blocking. While the rubbers above will give a flat ball, they aren't "weird." What is the pip orientation and throw angle of Pistol like? Is the topsheet at all similar to DHS Sharping, which is also supposed to have a "weird" effect?

-- Andrew



andrew have you tried hammond FA speed? What is the chinese pips that resemble hammond FA speed the most?? does it sound/feel like glued


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PostPosted: 22 Sep 2011, 07:54 
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elpmip wrote:
"I've got a sheet of Stiga Royale I haven't tried yet, maybe I will eventually, though JTU works well enough I don't feel the need to switch. is it a sticky pips rubber like Radical? What is the throw angle like? Any tension built-in or does it need to be speed glued?"

Royale is a muce better SP frmo Stiga. The sponge is softer but bouncy. I don't think speed glue is necessary unless one is a slow blade.
The topsheet is also quite soft. I hope it would not wear and tear as much as JTU. This is my replacement for JTU.

This is also the third JTU I have. It is new and still spinny and bouncy. The two older one slow down a lot and lost spin. It ages quickly. I don't mind it when new.

Radical is terrible for me. Got some dirt of light color stuck on it and very hard to make it clean. I tried to rub off the dirt with my fingers and small rubber particles started to come off. There are more and more and, eventually, I used a TT ball to rub off the rubber surface making it shorter. The ball got deformed due to heat and the rubber topsheet got melted. It becomes even sticker.

Useless rubber. Sponge is also harder. Don't waste money on it. Try Royale if one wants Stiga.

I don't understand why people want sticky/tacky rubbers. It is wasting people's energy. It makes balls go slower but not necessarily spinner due to lack of momentum. The ball won't fall after a few seconds when the blade is reverse. What for?

RTIC Geospin Tacky, Hurricane, etc? These rubbers are better and faster when the sticky layer worn out.
--


I haven't experienced this with Radical at all, in fact; it is one of my favorite SP's.
BTW 563 is a medium pip.

Ian

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PostPosted: 09 Oct 2011, 13:01 
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As to the question raised in the original post, even the spinniest SP (like Raystorm, which I use) are still SP and not inverted. I can really only speak about their use on the BH, with inverted on the FH. SP have sensitivity to spin and can impart spin too, on some shots quite a bit, but the timing and trajectory are always very different from what happens on the inverted side. Spinny SP offer a huge amount of speed variation also, much more so than inverted. To me that is their main usefulness, but they are also really good at flicking very low balls, and highly angled blocks and quick attacking to set up a spinnier inverted stroke. The idea of spinny SP was not to use them like frictionless LP. The player has to know what the incoming spin is, and compensate accordingly, just like inverted. Fail to do that and you are toast. I do notice that most male SP players who play at a very high level (2500 up to international level) are very very very quick on their feet, and tend to be able to take an unusually high number of balls with their inverted forehands. It seems like a more viable style for women at really high levels of play.

I think that the biggest problem with SP is not their sensitivity to spin, it is, by far, the fact that they lose almost all their effectiveness once you get pushed back more than middle distance off the table. One of the major tactical goals, then, has to be to keep that from happening. (This is not true for that rarest of breeds, the SP chopper. They use very thin sponge, it is a different way to play, and I have no idea how they manage to do it).

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PostPosted: 09 Oct 2011, 13:20 
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Short pips attackers like Johnny Huang rarely yield the table. SP or MP are not rubbers for dropping off the table. The only person I saw who could do it was Orlowski, and he didn't make a habit of it.


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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2011, 15:32 
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Haggisv said:
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For serves and pushes, it's a lot easier to get heavy spin with tacky rubbers. That's the main reason I use them...


Yes, you can get heavier spin with tacky rubbers. However, I have switched to two-sided SP, because when pushing with these you can get a completely different type of backspin push. The backspin push with these SP comes off the rubber in a much lower throw than inverted, so I can hit lower and harder backspin pushes - with more accuracy than inverted pushes. When in a backspin to backspin push battle I can push back FASTER than my inverted opponent, because their inverted rubber pops the ball up a bit due to the stickiness of the inverted. My SP backspin pushes can actually skid upon table contact. This is really winning points!

Please note that I'm using thin sponge on both rubbers. This is better for pushing and serve return than thick sponge SP.

:P 8)

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PostPosted: 30 Oct 2011, 03:31 
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And to add, while trying short pips and comparing it to inverted, I notice that generally inverted rubbers are more consistent in producing similar shots. Using short pips will yield some variation even tho the execution is nearly the same.

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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2013, 09:35 
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I have tried grippy short pips during this summer (Degu with 1.5 mm purple Palio sponge on backhand) to start a "tricky" game. I just quit it in favour of inverted, because....

... I miss the safety of the looping arc (which feels to me like a ropedancer's net)
... on tangential opening strokes (e.g. from the baseline) the pips become sometimes too fast
... I did not find the border, on which amount of backspin I can switch from pushing to hitting
... I do not have a system of play for short pips. I only enjoy to play some "ugly" pushes, unusal serves and surprising openings
... I sometimes feel like having to many opportunities.
... our double does not work (my partner uses long pips)
... I do not have the advantage of spin-insensitiveness (because I don't have a problem with spin at all)
... I have not won any game of importance since I started it (2 tournaments and 3 team-games in our playtime)

I decided to switch back to inverted after my first singles game this evening. Because I had a second game in advance, I guessed about playing a teammates bat (but they use either faster ones or some pips as well).
Thats why a played on with my bat, but turned it. I became used to twiddle while serving or when receiving in the double. This game, I played the pips on forehand, except I did serve with pips from backhand. This time I played a lot better, but I still had problems with my many opportunities.


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PostPosted: 10 Sep 2013, 18:45 
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Just read the thing about Stiga Radical melting off.

This is weird. I saw a guy actually playing with melted Stiga Radical pips; even the end label was melted; I could hardly read the part that said "Radical." Is it that sensitive to heat?
I used to play Tacky inverted FH and was hoping Radical combined the best of both worlds with tacky pips. Was thinking of getting one but after reading this...


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PostPosted: 11 Sep 2013, 09:01 
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There's a recent trend in thread necro-ing.....hm...... :^)

Oh well.

This is actually a question I've wondered myself.

In general, what's the difference between Spinny short pips and normal inverted?

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PostPosted: 11 Sep 2013, 09:25 
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Depends on what you think is a "normal" inverted: does normal mean short or long pips inside, conical or not, thick or elastic topsheet, ... ?


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