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 Post subject: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011, 11:27 
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Just out of curiosity, I think I'll try out chopping with short pips. Looking at some previous threads on the topic, it seems that RITC 802 on 1.0 sponge is the best cheap option, while TSP Super Spinpips with Chop Sponge 1.0-1.3 is the best out there, but pricey. Does anyone have any other recommendations for some other pips to try? Also, how hard are the topsheets on those, for anyone who's tried them? I don't like the feel of raw pips (unhardened, like most mid pips, for instance Globe 888), so I'm hoping those both have hardened topsheet rubber.

My other question is regarding technique. I'm looking at some videos of pro short pips choppers and I got the impression that the stroke to chop with short pips is a swifter and sharper motion than a typical long pips chop stroke. Is that a fairly accurate observation?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011, 17:01 
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Recently I switched from LP to SP chopping, so I guess I can answer.

First or all, it is definitely worth to try SP chopping. The merits of SP vs LP, I think:
  • more spin variation, e.g. you can return flat balls against spinny loops; LP can't do that.
  • you can hit!

The most common problems:
  • The majority of SP on the market are not spinny enough for spin variation game.
  • Most of SPs are for attacking game. They are simply too fast/springy for defplay. You can use thin sponge, but this decreases dwelling time, I guess, and leads to less spin.

QuickDraw wrote:
I'm looking at some videos of pro short pips choppers and I got the impression that the stroke to chop with short pips is a swifter and sharper motion than a typical long pips chop stroke. Is that a fairly accurate observation?

Yes. Chopping with SP is far more complicated than LP chopping. LP absorbs speed and does spin reversal, while SP does not. Generally, if you can chop with inverted rubber (I can, for example, and I use BTY T64 1.9 or 2.1 and also T05-FX 2.1), you can chop with SP as well. Note that the most recent LP I used was XIOM Guillotine 1.6 and BTY FL II 1.3.

QuickDraw wrote:
Does anyone have any other recommendations for some other pips to try?

Too soon to ask, I guess. Try something (I would recommend 802 on orange sponge) and then let us know you feelings. I can recommend something else only after that. Selecting SP is time- and money-consuming process ; )

For example, see what I tried so far:
  • TSP Spectol Speed 1.5 (white sponge): Everything is good, except that it is too fast. Good on TSP Balsa 3.5, but I prefer Innershield now.
  • TSP Spectol 1.5 (standard yellow sponge): Like previos one, but less spin variation and less control.
  • TSP Spectol 1.5 HRS sponge: Definetely too fast.
  • TSP Superspinpips chop 1.7: Again too fast. Definetely not spinny enough, so I decided not to try 1.3 sponge etc.
  • TIBHAR SPEEDY SOFT D.TECS 1.5: Too fast, very hard to control.
  • BTY Challenger attack 1.7: Like inverted rubber. Not enough spin variation.
  • RITC 802 1.5 standard 729 sponge (orange): The best solution so far for me. However, the spong is too hard/dull for my taste.
  • RITC 802 1.5 HRS sponge: like 802 on 729, MORE spin due to softer sponge, but too spingy for defensive game.
  • RITC 802-1 1.5 HRS sponge: Feel is better (softer) than standard 802, but 802-1 top sheet is not grippy enough.

At the moment I am going to try with 802 on Reaktor sponge (from zeropong) and then with Avalox sponge (from eacheng).
If not satisfied, I will try Armstrong pips (like Attack 3).

QuickDraw wrote:
Also, how hard are the topsheets on those, for anyone who's tried them? I don't like the feel of raw pips (unhardened, like most mid pips, for instance Globe 888), so I'm hoping those both have hardened topsheet rubber.

Superspinpips Chop is quite hard for my taste. 802 is softer. However, 802 is more like inverted than Superspinpips.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 10 Jun 2011, 22:03 
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You might want to read this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15726

Ian

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2011, 00:54 
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Wow, thank you for all the tips. I'll definitely try 802, maybe a few others. I'm surprised you said Super Spinpips on chop sponge was too fast, as others have described it as very slow and dead. Maybe it was because you used much thicker sponge with it. Have you ever tried something in the 1.0-1.3 range? I know some top level players use 1.5, but I'd think the thinner sponge would bring the speed down and improve control for us non-superhumans. :D

Oh also, when you're talking about regular 802, did you mean http://eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=1155 or the "Tack Speed" version that most places carry?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2011, 04:03 
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would the DAWEI butter or AIR zero sponges work well under short pip topsheets?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2011, 17:27 
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QuickDraw wrote:
I'm surprised you said Super Spinpips on chop sponge was too fast, as others have described it as very slow and dead. Maybe it was because you used much thicker sponge with it. Have you ever tried something in the 1.0-1.3 range? I know some top level players use 1.5, but I'd think the thinner sponge would bring the speed down and improve control for us non-superhumans. :D

I used FL II 1.3 with success, but this is LP. Regarding Super Spinpips, I decided to never try is because its topsheet is not grippy enough for my style of play. I am not going to continue with 802-1 because of the same reason. I need to produce both very strong underspins and floating balls, so I definitely need grippy surface.

I am going to try thinner sponge only when no other options left. I want to catch the ball into the sponge, and I think that I need soft but not springy sponge >= 1.5 mm for that.

QuickDraw wrote:
Oh also, when you're talking about regular 802, did you mean http://eacheng.net/index.php?act=detail&ID=1155 or the "Tack Speed" version that most places carry?

I have the "Tack Speed" version (black envelope). It comes with 729 orange sponge, I guess.

I have also 802 topsheet (which came in the white envelope with eagle) which I use for experiments with different sponges.

Note that both topsheets are identical.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 16 Jun 2011, 22:27 
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I'll add another thumbs up for the 802 pips! I tried the red sheet in 1.5mm (with 35 deg sponge from zeropong) and found them very easy to chop with. What's great is they're also able to smash the hell outta the ball too, if you like playing a bit of offense, that is. Granted my playing level isn't super high. But I believe there have been a number of professionals quite adept at handling the 802s for chopping (Ding Song, Wu Yang, Hou Y.).

I've also used long pips, which were a bit easier to chop with as far as control and backspin generation go. To my understanding the short pips game is more geared toward spin variation, while long pips are great at relentless, ever building backspin (and deception depending on the type)!

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2011, 06:15 
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ilikepie wrote:
would the DAWEI butter or AIR zero sponges work well under short pip topsheets?
Today I tried 802 with 1.5 sponge taken from Feint Soft. I am thinking that this sponge is quite like AIR zero (colestt.com). At least my sponge is soft but NOT springy, and this is how AIR Zero is described at colestt. Results seems to be excellent, but I have to check this during tournament (this Sunday, I hope).

Other recent experiments:
  • 802 on Dr.Zheng Yellow 1.5 (zeropong): feels harder than 729 orange sponge. Playing characteristics are the same, however.

skilless_slapper wrote:
I'll add another thumbs up for the 802 pips! ... But I believe there have been a number of professionals quite adept at handling the 802s for chopping (Ding Song, Wu Yang, Hou Y.).
Just a note: as far as know, Hou uses Spectol (probably on custom sponge). I would also like to try it on AIR zero sponge.

BTW, does anybody know who sells Spectol topsheets?

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2011, 09:23 
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Excellent posts artem.tamazov! :clap: :clap: :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2011, 14:39 
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artem.tamazov wrote:

skilless_slapper wrote:
I'll add another thumbs up for the 802 pips! ... But I believe there have been a number of professionals quite adept at handling the 802s for chopping (Ding Song, Wu Yang, Hou Y.).
Just a note: as far as know, Hou uses Spectol (probably on custom sponge). I would also like to try it on AIR zero sponge.





Yea that sounds accurate. I only recalled reading somewhere that Hou had used 802 when on the chinese team (maybe product promotion?).

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2011, 00:17 
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I always read Spectol short pips for Hou, Ian.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2011, 21:13 
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artem.tamazov wrote:
ilikepie wrote:
would the DAWEI butter or AIR zero sponges work well under short pip topsheets?
Today I tried 802 with 1.5 sponge taken from Feint Soft. I am thinking that this sponge is quite like AIR zero (colestt.com). At least my sponge is soft but NOT springy, and this is how AIR Zero is described at colestt. Results seems to be excellent, but I have to check this during tournament (this Sunday, I hope).
Well, on this sponge 802 bevanes very similar to ordinary inverter rubber. Easy to block, but -- NOT suitable for chopping against spinny top-spins at all. It is too sensitive to the incoming spin! For example, it is easier to chop by Tenergy 64 1.9 (which I have on other side) than by 802 on Feint Soft 1.5 sponge. And it is unable to produce enough spin variation. Finally, I do not recommend using it for chopping.

Results for DAWEI Butter sponge may be different, but I am almost sure that 802 on it will behave very similar to 802 on Feint Soft 1.5 (which, again, should be quite like AIR zero, I guess).

So far, the best 802 combination for chopping I know is tack-speed version (comes standard on 729 orange sponge).

Also I am going to experiment also with TSP Spectol top sheet + Feint Soft 1.5 sponge today.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2011, 05:03 
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artem.tamazov wrote:
Also I am going to experiment also with TSP Spectol top sheet + Feint Soft 1.5 sponge today.
...And the result is very like but slightly better than with 802 topsheet.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2011, 12:59 
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Best chopping rubber in the Butterfly line (IMO) is Feint Long 3. It gives very spinney chops-Ruwen Filus and Koji Matsushita use it very well (Panagiotis Goinis use FL 2). Feint soft is probably easier to use but I don't think it gives the massive underspin that 3 gives. It certainly attacks better though.

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 Post subject: Re: Chopping short pips?
PostPosted: 21 Jun 2011, 20:03 
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ian demagi wrote:
Best chopping rubber in the Butterfly line (IMO) is Feint Long 3. It gives very spinney chops-Ruwen Filus and Koji Matsushita use it very well (Panagiotis Goinis use FL 2). Feint soft is probably easier to use but I don't think it gives the massive underspin that 3 gives. It certainly attacks better though.
Ian
Thanks, Ian. Perhaps you are right, but we are discussing short pips for chopping here ;) I use 802 and Spectol topsheets and experiment with different sponges.

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