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Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking ball?
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Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 03 May 2012, 21:50 ]
Post subject:  Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking ball?
The problem is that with inverted on my FH I am forever hitting 1/2 or more of my smashes into the net. Sometimes its because I wasn't watching for and trying to adjust to the underspin on the ball, and to be honest, when I see it and try to adjust for it, it still goes into the net, and its very demoralizing. I use Nittaku Narucross GS Soft or Supersoft with thick or superthick sponge. I am able to create spinny serves, chop, push and hit well with it, and smash quite a few balls well, but haven't figured out how to know when my smash will fail, and I haven't been able to simulate it with my robot.

There is one penhold guy I lose to a lot that plays with short pips. I lose all the time because everything I hit back to him goes into the net. I found out the other day he uses Stiga Royal with a 2.0 sponge. Unfortunately, at $40, its very expensive to try and I'm afraid it could be yet another failure.

So I decided to try short pips, using the logic that if its that terrible for me to play against, I should be playing with it instead. I tried Challenger Attack with thin sponge, but it doesn't seem able to attack. I tried 802-1 with thin sponge and it can't attack, either. It seems I can serve, push or chop with about anything, but have problems mounting an attack that is hard enough to win the point and still hit the table with it.

So I bought Spectol 21, RITC 802-40 and DHS 651 all with thick sponges. Evidently they won't sell the Spectol 21 anymore, so that never arrived. The 802-40 is nice to play with, and plays like the inverted, and can hit thru the spin, but doesn't create the sinking ball that causes me to lose points, games and matches. The 651 wasn't nice to play with. It was very heavy and every ball I hit went into the net at first. It did create the sinking ball and was able to hit thru spin, and if you remembered to lift the ball with every shot eventually after 20 min, many were going over the net. It was able to chop, but it was worthless in that regard vs a looper compared to the long pips or inverted.

Is there a short pips that can hit thru spin or return serves, creates sinking balls, fast enough to win points, spinny enough to serve, chop and push, that doesn't weigh in like a ton of bricks or put ME into the net all the time?
Author:  hookshot [ 04 May 2012, 00:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
I will be blunt. It is NOT the rubber causing your problem. You have already spent enough money to hire a coach for 30 minutes or an hour and found your real problem. Quit looking for a fix with different rubber.

You hit in the net against pip players as they do not make much topspin. If you are using inverted, you must take speed off and make more spin to get a ball up and over the net. Some of the rubbers you tried can not make any spin.

I think it was Einstien that said, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". You keep hitting in the net. It is NOT the rubber that needs changing but the stroke. You need to understand the spin involved, then the problem is solvable. :)
Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 04 May 2012, 01:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
I disagree. There are two separate issues there. One is why my smashes with inverted go into the net so much. They DIDN'T go into the net hardly at all with the 802-40, but it didn't create the "sinking ball" I wanted that short pips normally create (and what causes me problems when I play against them).

The DHS 651 did what I wanted except that *I* was having to lift every ball and that it was so heavy it was like adding 2 or 3 sheets of thick sponge to my paddle. I can adjust to hitting the ball differently if that's what it takes to win, but I can't get the blade to where it needs to be to return shots if its too heavy.

The Stiga Royal creates the sinking ball, too, I know, because I've played against it, but I don't know if it can hit thru underspin or not, or if its heavy, or fast enough, etc.

So, what attribute of SOME short pips rubbers causes the "sinking ball" that me or anyone else trying to hit it back to need to lift each shot? Which rubbers have that attribute?
Author:  decoy [ 04 May 2012, 02:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
so, one question comes to mind.. can you loop? or can you loop to a decent degree?
Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 04 May 2012, 03:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
I've been trying to learn to do a FH loop, but with the inverted the loop I am able to produce is almost good enough to get the ball on the table 1/2 the time when practicing, and with only 10 or 20% success in a real game situation. Usually I lose the point either way if I try it.

For some strange reason I was able to loop a bit with the 802-40 without actually trying to loop.

On my BH with the long pips I loop all the time if anyone chops the ball at me.

PS: I guess the best answer is that I've been trying to learn to loop, but at present its not part of my game, so I won't lose my looping ability by going to short pips on the FH. That said, I *AM* trying to make myself more capaple of initiating the attack out of a pushing battle.
Author:  ian demagi [ 04 May 2012, 05:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
Sinking ball is more a medium pips thing and I would not put medium pips of my forehand. I guess you could give 799 a try since its pips are more cushy than the 802 series.

Ian
Author:  ilikepie [ 05 May 2012, 10:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
You probably aren't lifting enough with the inverted, and it is reacting heavily to the spin and tugging the ball into the net.

You need to have a faster loop to solve this, and to control a faster loop you need more practice with a good coach.

651 is not really a forehand rubber for a shakehand player. It has good spin and high speed, but it was practically built for one sided penhold blocker/hitters, not for loopers although it can mini-loop although not as well as the 802-40.

BUT

A pip that will create a lot of spin like 802-40 will have almost no sink, but a pip like 651 that creates a good effect will make way less spin.

I suggest you drop the short pips and carry on with inverted.
Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 05 May 2012, 12:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
ilikepie wrote:
You probably aren't lifting enough with the inverted, and it is reacting heavily to the spin and tugging the ball into the net.

You need to have a faster loop to solve this, and to control a faster loop you need more practice with a good coach.

651 is not really a forehand rubber for a shakehand player. It has good spin and high speed, but it was practically built for one sided penhold blocker/hitters, not for loopers although it can mini-loop although not as well as the 802-40.

BUT

A pip that will create a lot of spin like 802-40 will have almost no sink, but a pip like 651 that creates a good effect will make way less spin.

I suggest you drop the short pips and carry on with inverted.


Yeah, my FH hitting with it is too slow to make the points. And I've concluded that what creates the sinking ball effect at the same time causes me to need to lift everything, so I guess I don't have any easy out. Its very painful watching the smashes go straight into the net over and over, but if I can ever get someone to hit them to me to practice, maybe I can figure a way to hit them over. I don't have big money for lessons or coaching, which is why I attempted these $15 solutions. Maybe I need to forget about smashing anything that looks like underspin, and just try to fake like I'm going to smash it, and then chop instead. That, I can do. The better players run up and smash it at me, though...
Author:  YosuaYosan [ 06 May 2012, 14:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
Sir, have you tried the classic 802 with the orange sponge?
Specifically in red, it could hit through spin very well and it has the classic sinking effect.
The other option is the rather grippy Dawei 388B-1 but it has been banned by the ITTF.
Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 06 May 2012, 18:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
I'll keep the 802 in mind in case I can't learn to read and adjust for the spin better. In the meantime, I found someone that is trying to learn to twiddle with long pips and likes to block, so I got him to practice twiddling and blocking while I smashed, which was giving me some topspin and some underspin balls to hit. Maybe if we practice that regularly, I'll get to where I don't hit them into the net.
Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 07 May 2012, 15:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
Hmmmm, after thinking on it a bit, it occurs to me that short pips and long pips have many similarities, and with a thinner sponge I might be able to chop pretty well with short pips, and if it still creates balls that are inherently deceptive, spin wise, I can do similar things with them, spin wise, on my backhand. And since I can twiddle if I have time, and the with shots in question I do usually have time, it makes sense that maybe I could leave my FH rubber alone, and switch the BH from LP to SP.

I remembered that I have an almost new sheet of Butterfly Challenger Attack with thin sponge, and its the right color for my BH, so I put it on my spare blade, and tried it with the robot. It actually worked fairly well for a first try. I could chop with it, not as well as with LP, but reasonably well, but it would be a good bet that within a week, my chopping would improve, perhaps not to as good as it is now, and perhaps I'd lose a bit on serve return and pushing ability as compared to LP, but the trade off would be that I've have a weapon to attack from the BH with, or twiddle and use to FH smash thru spin with.

I will give it a test on some unsuspecting soul tomorrow, LOL.
Author:  Old-Man-Southpaw [ 10 May 2012, 23:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
I had given up on the short pips FH until a looper competitor I play with that always beats me told another player that when I played him last time with the SP/LP combo, it was the worst thing he'd ever had to play against. He thought I still had it on the paddle and was warning the other guy about it, so I figured maybe the setup has more merit than I gave it. I had lost to him 3-2, but really that's not a bad showing considering I'd only had it on the paddle for 30 minutes at that point, and I haven't done any better than that against him in the past year.

Another friend (great player at about 2300 is my guess) had a couple of used sheets of TSP Spectol, and I borrowed and tried one of them, and it was working well enough on FH that I bought it from him and glued it to my Yasaka Extra (because its a bit harder and faster than my Defence II setups, and I found where someone said not to put this rubber on a soft blade) along with a sheet of Nittaku LP for the BH. It doesn't do that much of a sinking ball effect like the DHS 651, I don't think, but otherwise it played quite well. It pushed, chopped and served beautifully, and within a couple hours I was able to maintain a sustained rally with topspin and chop from off the table, which is something I've only become able to do the past 2 or 3 months, and only with a few selected inverted rubbers, so that's a good sign. It was pretty fast, faster than the 802-40 or 651, but not as fast as the inverted.

The friend that sold it to me told me he was selling it because he hated it and it didn't work for him. Afterwards he tried it and decided he liked it, too. He said it just felt good on that blade. I WISH I can learn to hit with it like he was. It was able to hit quite fast in his hands...

I'll give myself a few weeks playing with it to see how well I can adapt to it and find the strengths and weaknesses.
Author:  keme [ 11 May 2012, 00:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
You may want to check out the Youtube videos by MsPips101. She says she uses Spectol on both sides with 2,1mm sponge. It seems that her videos provide a good overview of the offensive potential (and the limitations) of that rubber. There's hitting, looping, fast and slow serves, deception and control.

Also I think she does a good job of analyzing her own performance. I believe it's useful to study her playing for errors as well as to learn the good shots. Keep her comments available while watching.
Author:  ian demagi [ 12 May 2012, 07:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
Or if you are doing a lot of hitting let me stress Freindship 837 is a great long pip rubber for hitting-and it will cost you 10 bucks (usd). Is it "deceptive", no, but it has wonderful sink-its fast and consistent. Put it on a fast blade on your backhand and pick hit the other guy til he screams "uncle." :D


For forehand, I think 802 with orange sponge will do as well as many more expensive brands. Time tested and proven-about 12 dollars (usd).

You could outfit an exeperimental blade:

Loop Sonic $7.00
FH: 802 (black) 1.5 $10.00
BH: 837 (red) 1.0 $10.00

So for 27.00 plus glue, tax , & shipping you have outfitted a great experimental blade without breaking the bank...I think it might work for you...good luck ;)

Ian
Author:  YosuaYosan [ 12 May 2012, 10:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Fast FH short pips to hit thru spin & create sinking bal
You might want to check this out, Sir.
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