OOAK Table Tennis Forum

What I mean by near table attack is looping and hitting, here h2 is great. What I understood by your post is that you like to hit through and manipulate the spin on the ball by the natural stretch and release of inverted rubber. H2 is not very good at that... Its a solid and stiff rubber so it doesn't transfer much energy back into the ball.

A short pip does cause some confusion because its pretty neutral with what it does with spin. A really springy inverted rubber will return the most spin back into the ball.

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Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm

Indeed so! "Reversal" in particular has received a rather special meaning in a TT context.
With a common stroke using inverted, you turn movement as well as spin in the opposite direction, more or less.
"Spin reversal" implies that when direction of movement is in fact reversed, direction of spin is unchanged. This is most commonly achieved by using pips or antispin rubber.

When there is a possibility of ambiguity/confusion (as in "returning" vs. "reversing" spin), I prefer to avoid the ambiguity (or sometimes just specify further), using terms like "continuing" or "countering" the spin.

Come to think of it, when we talk about LP or antispin, there is always a possibility of confusion. Intended confusion...

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My blog of failures, etc., also containing equipment list at "resurrection" (referred to in a few of my early posts), and my current lineup
Rating in the middle/low range in the region.
Moderating the LP Attacking subforum in the Technique section.

Stop trying to bait me Keme!

I actually thought it was pretty clear what Zhaoyang meant by real reversal (because LP type reversal is really continuing the spin) and H2 isn't going to continue spin with a block unless its got a glass surface treatment

Anyway, I think from here it will just be interesting to read Zhaoyang's impressions of 802-40. I have a sheet of it and pulled the bat its on out for a brief hit the other week to see what I thought of it on my FH cos Foam keeps telling me to try SP/LP (no Foam, I haven't go as far as putting it on a Gergely ).

As an aside, there is an older guy (maybe 60?) who plays an SP/LP combo who moved up the grade above me this season. I thought he would get killed as having played about 4 (or was it 6?) competition matches against him, I've only dropped one set. So the better, more agile, much younger, seasoned players in the next grade should have belted him back to our grade right? Nope, he is winning 70% or more of his matches more than halfway through the season. Not sure of his SP, his LP is Feint Long II I think. He twiddles a little during a point and the difference between his SP and LP is enough to confuse the heck out of these players. I would have said he would be 1800US equivalent..no more than 1900. The average player in our A3 seniors would be 2100US, but somehow he is beating them!

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I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
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Its going to be diabolical when you guys see what carbonman is using this season.

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Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm

I put both sheets 2.2/1.8 on a Mazunov, leaving a 1.5cm gap above the handle as on penhold blades. I did this so it would have the same gap as the H2 on my T-11+, and also because that notch reminds me to keep my finger down.
Now this setup weighs only 174g, down 35g! My T-11+ with H2 on both sides, cut short, is 166g. That's close enough.

I haven't played with it yet but just bouncing a ball on the table and driving it across I could whack it pretty hard.
On the one hand, I can see that the ball is not hooking downward as sharply as with H2, and I expected that.
On the other hand, during actual play I don't usually hit this hard anyway. So, it is possible that it is good enough in this regard.

Its response in the forward direction (speed, depth, etc) seems very linear and clean and controllable etc. I'll be watching to see if it excels at this. I would weigh this heavily if it does.

On this hard blade this rubber feels hard and crisp and clean (sorry I won't try to define those), and its throw is minimal. These are qualities for which I have praised H2, the qualities that I sought in H2. So, its behavior is sortof in the same world (at least with regard to over-the-table issues). I can imagine that someone who is used to this rubber might find H2 too reactive. (And I guess this is why some people say that H2 is horrible over the table. Of course I don't agree with that, as reactive also means active, if you can deal with it.)

I'll be playing with it and giving it a fair chance, and I'll come back to this thread later with my conclusion.

...actually,
at this one test - bouncing the ball off the table and topspin-driving it across, brushing and hitting as fast as I can - the 802-40 is so close to the H2 that I know I would have to make a video to get anyone to believe me! And further, I think the 1.8 might be both faster *and* spinnier than the 2.2! I might make a video.

[Edit after further solo testing:
(Remember that I'm doing this on a very hard blade.)
The 1.8 is a little sharper/faster (I'm not saying that's better or worse) than the 2.2. I can't say I can tell which one is spinnier but I suspect its the 1.8. (The rationale would be the same one that explains, at least to me, why H2 is spinnier on a hard blade.)

I do not notice the 1.8 bottoming out (this sponge still seems pretty hard to me).

The 1.8's throw is practically zero; performing the test above, hitting the ball at about net height, the blade is vertical and almost impossible to close. The throw of the 2.2 and H2 are about the same; I *can* close them maybe 15° but with a tremendous brush I never play in a game. So, it's practically zero. (I don't plan to play that way, I'm just measuring the throw.)
I'm guessing that the 2.2 is going to absorb hard shots a little better. But, I think anyone could just get 2.0 and not worry about these small differences.
end edit]

If this equipment sacrifices looping (which I don't really do) in return for some other properties, then I aim to understand what those other properties are. Then I might understand better why e.g. He Zhi Wen uses 802.

It appears to be simple, clean and accurate... and light! I need to know how it blocks hard shots though.

I bought this 802-40 from Zeropong and it has the "729 Supersoft 35°" sponge.

I played with it.

The Mazunov with 802-40 is 62% hard wood by weight. The T-11+ with H2 is 45% wood. Why do I mention that? Because the "ambiance" of the one is of wood, while the other is relatively rubbery, and head heavy too, which certainly makes it feel heavier despite being 8g lighter. The friend I played with agreed with these observations.

The Mazunov with 802-40 plays "like a 2x4". If "control" means the ball goes where I aim it, then the setup's control is heavenly!

After playing a while with the 802-40, switching to the H2 is just as I expected: against the same opponent I found the ball suddenly jumping at all angles from the rubber. So, I must focus more on the spin the opponent is applying, to oppose it. Aside from that, H2's control (meaning the ball goes where I aim it) is good compared to other inverteds, in my opinion.

I had welcomed this behavior of H2, and maybe I still do. But it demands a degree of focus on the opponent's spin that is difficult to sustain.
So, the "cost" of H2 is weight, some control, and this degree of mental energy. But what is H2's "benefit"?
1) On soft-enough shots (where the ball is not making solid contact), with a fast brush, the H2 spins more. I tested for this: standing behind the table, drop the ball on the floor and when it rebounds to about 2-3ft/.5m, catch it with bottom/side and then watch how sharply it bounces sideways on the table. H2 is better but I had to work at it to confirm it; it is, I don't know, 25% better. How soft is "soft-enough"? In a real game, it is the serve (which can be mitigated with a higher toss) but above all the short service return which might be affected. On hard shots, the 802-40 is faster and might be just as spinny. (As I said, I don't expect anyone to believe me without a video, and not even then.)
2) I haven't been able to test it yet, but when blocking a hard shot, *this* H2 might dampen more speed than *this* 802-40. (But one could probably find an 802-40 on more dissipative sponge if necessary, and one can "pull back" more sharply too.) I can see that pips players are able to block so this should not be a problem, but I need to see it for myself.
3) Looping/counter-looping, they say. I wouldn't know.

Others have said most of the above but it was interesting to see it for myself.
I prefer the 1.8mm, so I can buy a red one now.

Not-Conclusion:
Is the extra trouble that H2 causes my opponent worth the extra trouble it causes me? Mmm... I don't know yet. I sortof doubt it. I suspect that what I lose (sometimes) in spin will be regained with (frequently) better placement. How it blocks hard shots will determine whether or not I switch.

Can anyone tell me how much of this rubber's label area I may legally cut off? It's pretty tall and I'd like to bring it down (while still leaving a gap).
I've seen a pro's that had the bottom (smooth) margin cut off, but how about the serrated portion on the right with the Chinese writing?
How about the entire serrated portion, maybe just retaining the ITTF stamp?

[edit:]
3.2.1.3 The covering material on a side of the blade used for striking the ball shall be of a brand and type currently authorized by the ITTF and shall be attached to the blade so that the brand and the ITTF logo are clearly visible near the edge of the striking surface.

I'll cut off the bottom smooth margin and the right-side serrated area of the backhand side.
[end edit]

I'm switching to 802-40.
I'm also happy to go back to my Mazunov.

I expect to gain more from generally better placement than I lose sometimes in spin, as I discussed above.
Too bad I spent so much money on other rubbers, but it is helpful to see these things for yourself if you can. Otherwise you'd always wonder, right?

Now I'm eager to practice
1) higher-toss serve
2) pullback blocks of all kinds
3) more economical motion generally
4) aiming closer to the lines

I'm enjoying the sharper aim very much.

I tried to play with it against better players tonight.
Eh, not so easy.

On too many easy and medium shots I missed H2's magical downward hook.
And I never made one of those hits, described above, so hard that 802-40's spin rivals H2's.

It calls for a different kind of game. Yes, everybody already knows that.

You can't do that with 1.8mm sponge on the 802-40. You'll need 2.2mm.

Exactly what part of that quote can I not do with 1.8mm which, if I switch to 2.2mm, I can then do?
Would someone please answer that?

I didn't say I expected 802-40 to spin like H2 (though in one case, which I described, it almost does).
I didn't say I was trying to play a big topspin game with it, but the opposite.
I said that during play I "missed" H2. Does anyone know what that means?

If I want something that spins like H2 I will pull that out of my bag, because 802-40 2.2 ain't it either.

Edit: I was having a bad day. I later apologized to roundrobin in a PM.

That happens to me all the time,
If i change my rubber in the first week i keep saying that with the other rubber i didnt miss that shot or something like that.

is normal to think that, u just need to know that need some time to adjust to the new material...

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Victas Koji Matsushita
Thibar Hybrid k1 euro max
TSP Curl p1-r 1.0

Right manofan!
You have no idea how good your reply feels to me right now. They destroyed me and I'm depressed as heck! Just kidding, kindof.
When I said "I miss my H2" it was like "give me my bottle!! I miss my nipple!!
See you later.