OOAK Table Tennis Forum

(Edit: It's a ramble but this post describes the kind of game, it seems to me, that is usually associated with short pips or "fast attack". I think. But I've never used pips-out.)

I learned to play in mid-life and then I didn't play for 25+ years. So, I'm an older guy about U.S. 1200 (they say). I don't aim to be a great player but I can imagine what it would look like to play my best ("in the envelope" of my actual ability).

The things I love most about H2 on a hard and stiff blade are:
1) Very cleanly and with minimal dwell and throw, it reverses (actually reverses) the spin that is already on the ball; when I block a hard topspin drive, it comes off my (quite open) paddle fast and with functional topspin. I suspect a lot of people don't notice how good it is at this, and I believe a hard blade helps it too.
2) Although most commentators mention the big sweeping strokes, H2 has a hard-biting "short stroke" game too. Just as in #1. And in fact, this is how I try to play, over the table, blocking and "cutting" everything.
3) In the past I always returned backspin serves with backspin. But when I discovered that I could flick these with topspin, with H2 (at least against the opponents I face), I think I fell in love. Top/side return just destroys some people!

Here is how I think about the game:
1) the emergency block (sticking the paddle out with the right angle) is prerequisite to everything else. (Since there is no time to choose how to stroke this, I choose my equipment beforehand to handle this.)
2) every block is angled and either pushed or pulled as the geometry permits
3) having a little time, and knowing that I could still block or push-block or punch-block in minimum time, a brush (in any direction that the geometry permits) is the fun part; generally every ball should be "cut", I read somewhere, and I agree.
4) Looping should be done when it's the best shot available. I don't really believe in looping rallies. I tend to think that one of the players should move closer to play sharper angles. This attitude is convenient because I can't counterloop and don't especially want to train for it.
5) Ideally, I would overload the opponent with big spin in all different directions, and then cut one at a sharp angle that they can't touch.
6) No-spin and knuckleballs have not entered my thinking yet. Sorry, my brain is full right now.

Here is my experience against better players:
I just recently found a club. There's this one guy in particular who's U.S. 1600-1800 (they say). He has a powerful (it seems to me) topspin loop/drive from either side. I have learned some important things from him. 1) I could block those drives more consistently with more practice, and I love this feeling of using his power against him. I don't want to counter-loop; the ideal reply (in my mind only I'm afraid) would be to "pull" the block enough to double-bounce it. 2) I had an instinct to step back when I could see a big shot coming, but I quickly learned that he would put it out of my reach by hitting the corners. So, I'm committed to the near-table game. 3) I found that I survived longest by keeping the ball down and the speed up and the angles sharp. Thus (although he's the much better player) I do best with an attacking attitude and intention. He then has less time to play "his" game. 4) Most importantly, every time he blew one past me I replayed it in my mind and realized that if I had been watching his windup I would have known it was coming and would have had a chance to guess which side. In the coming weeks, I am focused on blocking and I'm hoping to be ready for these shots.

My highest priority in this game:
I have two Chinese friends who tutor me in Mandarin Chinese. I bought a table and started playing again for their amusement, really. One of them is yet another 15+ years older than I. We are about equal players but I believe he was much better when he was younger. I don't want to "beat him up" over he table. But I would actually like to be good enough to pick my shots and craft them for entertainment value. They laugh a lot when they play and I wouldn't want that to ever stop.

I think I could aim for the old "fast attack" or HeZhiWen game, but shakehand and with H2. I will probably buy some 802-40 to let my friend try it. He plays cpen and close-to-table. Then I'll try it too.

There are some good threads here about short-pips and 802-40. I would enjoy some more comments about 802-40 and even how it compares to H2. If no one else does I will. I'm guessing that 802-40 can't replace H2, for me, with regard to the above, but one thing that catches my interest is how descriptions of how 802-40 plays and how it should be stroked sound a lot like H2 - low throw, needs decisive stroking, etc. Has anyone else noticed that?

I ordered some 802-40 in 1.8 and 2.2.

The weird thing is you are using h2 as a blocking rubber and nearly all rubbers are better at the things you mention than h2 is.

H2 excels at near the table attack and also distance looping but only if you have it on a thin blade, 802 is going to be even worse at the things you like to do but even better at attack at the table. Playing with the spin while blocking at the table you are better off with something very spinny and soft.

_________________
Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm

Thank you foam. I'll be thinking about that.

I don't quite understand what you are saying here Zhaoyang regarding choosing your 'equipment beforehand to handle this'. Such blocks are reasonably standard and are not equipment dependent. Of course, slower equipment offers a bit more control but overall it's just a matter of putting your bat in the way at the right angle.

You seem very enthusiastic which is great. Are you getting coached? Are you regularly and systematically doing drills? Even though you have got keen on TT relatively late in life you can still get to quite a decent standard (at least 1800 but possibly higher) if you are prepared to do some work. Don't be satisfied with being 1200! I'm not sure exactly how old you are but a guy I coach is 51 and has been playing for only a year. He works really hard and is already around 1700. Also, my team mate in pennant is in his early 70s and is still around 2250-2300 - although, admittedly he has been a good player for 50 years!

To carbonman:
The above quote was just a parenthetical defense of the equipment in my signature, just an aside. Otherwise I was just sharing my way of thinking, that the block is the basic foundation of play (not the loop, as so many seem to think). This being the short pips subforum I thought I would get an "amen brother" but maybe I'm misunderstanding everything about short pips and "near the table attack".

You said "not equipment dependent" but with the condition "at the right angle". OK, so when I say that my setup blocks well I mean that it blocks the way I want it to, with low throw (open paddle) and strong reversal (I mean real reversal). I said all of that so that anyone commenting on 802-40 would know what I'm looking for. I, myself, doubt that I'll like 802-40 more than H2 but I plan to find out.

Yes, I have some coaching available and I'd like to start that, thank you.

To foam:
I don't understand your post.
You said "nearly all rubbers are better at the things you mention than h2" and "H2 excels at near the table attack".
I thought I was talking about near the table attack. I thought that was what my post was about!
To me, near the table attack *is* spinning, angling, and hitting as severely as the geometry permits. It means sending the ball back more quickly and with more speed/angular unpredicatability (than someone laying back and looping), to keep the opponent too busy for his favorite big wind-up.
I don't mind if someone corrects my definition of "near the table attack".
As it is, I'll consider "802 is going to be even worse at the things you like to do" an endorsement!

My 802-40 should arrive tomorrow!

Near the table attack is about producing speed, sharp angles and CONTROLLING spin by being able to hit/drive/block through it, not producing it. This style requires quickness and easy maneuvering of very spinny shots coming at you. This is why H2 is a terrible rubber for near the table attack. H2 is a rubber for mid-distance attack where both spin and speed are crucial, but to play this style effectively you need both tremendous footwork and body strength.

To roundrobin:
Does that involve to some extent ignoring the spin, to some extent relying on the rubber to scrub off some of the spin while just "hitting" the ball? And if that's the case I would wonder (as others have) why anyone would use a short pip as tacky or grippy as 802-40, and why they wouldn't go all the way to medium or long pips. It's a compromise, right?

Could someone please point me to an extreme case of a prominent player (hopefully someone currently or recently active so I can watch videos) whose game is almost all placement and angles, like for example He Zhi Wen, but who uses a rubber that they expect to grip and reverse (actually reverse) spin? (male or female)

That would be "near the table". But if it isn't called "fast attack" I wonder what it's called?

Are you saying that when you block with H2 you get strong real reversal? If so, do you reversal off a regular block or are doing doing chop-blocks?

Just a regular block.
I see it most strongly when I block the hard topspin as I mentioned in the first post.
But I also see it when my friend sends one of his out of the hand long topspin serves. If I want to I can just hold the paddle still and it will go back with topspin. I can feel it dig in and push the blade down too.

Ohhh...now I get it. Yes that makes sense now. Just note that when people speak of reversal they usually mean that when they block against topspin their blocks have backspin.

Yes! That's why I always add "(actually reversed)".

To anyone interested, you can see "real reversal" of sidespin with with inverted rubber in this video. (Hint: the ball curves concave-right both coming and going)
Go to :25 for slow-mo.

Yes, no problem. Just for future reference you may not want to use the term 'reversal' as it will probably mislead most readers. If you are doing standard inverted blocking against topspin it is pretty much assumed that the blocks will have topspin on them.

When you use a H2 to block a loop the spin is reversed, like you said. However, it takes some time and energy for the ball to "dig" into the rubber to reverse the spin back, so you must add some torque on your own to generate pace on the return. With a rubber less sensitive to spin like 802-40, you can transfer your own energy (and that on the ball) back to your opponent FASTER without waiting for the spin to reverse completely. Does it make sense?

The reason why 802-40 is a good compromise between a H2 and a medium or long pips is because it still allows you to generate spin on your own when you want to. This is crucial to create a nice arc on your slower shots that can still carry a good amount of spin, thus allowing you to topspin-attack from below the table height when needed. Medium and long pips will not give you this VERY important option.

I appreciate that roundrobin, and I'll be thinking about it.