OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hello
I have been using long pips BH and inverted FH the past few months. I made a new setup using 802 Mystery III 2.1 on FH and DB 1615 Ox on BH.

802 Mystery III is a grippy short pips. The strokes I use are almost the same as the inverted rubber strokes. With 802 I can block, push, chop, loop drive and smash. I have no problems doing spinny serves as my 802 can still impart considerable spin, side, side-under, etc. The stroke I execute more with better results than inverted is the smash against any kind of spin as long as the ball gets a bit higher than the net. My long pips BH gives me a lot of weak balls and pop-ups for my 802 smash. Very hard to defend and so much fun!

However, I believe that I have barely scratched the potential of the short pips rubber. I am hoping that someone can help me with the fundamental strokes of short pips play and strategies to fully utilize this weapon.

I am the only pips user in my area and this forum is just about my only source of hope on this matter. This site is also the only source of my long pips knowledge and skill and things I have learned from this site has helped my game tremendously.

To the experienced pips players, kindly help me learn the fundamentals of short pips play. Thank you

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

Hi Knuckle Ball,
It sounds like you've looked around the forum, so maybe you've checked out the http://pipfacts.info/ site. The writings here are like a short pips bible for me. Watching pips player videos is also helpful. There's a forum page dedicated to pips videos, too.

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Blade: Stiga Classic Clipper (Penhold)
FH: Friendship 802-40 (2.0 mm)
BH (RPB): Friendship Higher (2.0 mm)

Wow another 802 user!

Thanks for directing me the "PIPS" site. No, I haven't been to this site before, but I'm sure gonna go over it thoroughly.

Really appreciate it Jwpdx!

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

Maybe it's useful to add something on the nature of grippy pips like 802 on the soft Mystery III sponge. Grippy SPs were developed to solve problems resulting from the change from the 38mm ball to the 40 mm ball, and again and more so to solve the problems associated with the outlawing of speedglue. A heavily speedglued old-fashioned 802 will make almost as much spin with the 38 mm ball as the 802-40 will with the 40 mm ball.
It is often suggested that grippy short pips can be used like inverted - not just the strokes, but also the tactics. In my opinion this is getting things wrong. A short pip, grippy or not, is essentially different from other rubbers in strokes as well as in tactics. SP, if it isn't used for chopping, is for block and attack. The less grippier pips have the advantage of generating hardly any spin on fast strokes, so the opponent has to lift the ball quite a bit, which makes it less easy for him to attack all out, and makes it easier for you to gain and keep the initiative. Grippier pips are essentially the same, but have the extra advantage that they enable smashing lower bouncing balls: because of greater frcition and/or softer sponge they can "pick up" the ball. They are, however, not for looping; to loop with pips is giving up speed and losing the initiative. Nor are they to be used much firther away from the table, even if they actually can pick up the ball there as well; hitting a descending ball will mean pulling it up and sacrificing speed again. Away from the table you will also lose your angles. Every SP is to be used close to the table.
The 802 Mystery III is slightly better in picking up balls than 802 on the standard white sponge or on the orange allround sponge, but the difference isn't spectacular (in fact, the Mystery III sponge is simply an attempt to imitate a heavily speed-glued Friendship standard sponge). It does, however, offer better control on flat hits, as the ball is caught in the sponge. That is where this rubber should be used for mostly: to smash every topspin or no-spin ball that comes to you.

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Without opponent, no match.

Thanks for the tip Kees.
I will look into improving my ball anticipation and over the table skills to fully utilize the strong qualities of my 802 Mystery. I still have to rethink my game plan because as I understand what Kees described above, 802 suits the "aggressive style" of play that takes the initiative of quick offense, rather than the laid back opportunistic defensive style that I am used to. So it will be looking to setup the 3rd ball at all times and staying close to the table.
Now I really enjoyed my short stint at playing classic defense away from the table, chopping BH with my 1615 Ox. I guess I have to ditch that if I wish to go play Double Pimples 802 FH / 1615 Ox BH.
So getting back to push/blocker kind of game with emphasis on speed and anticipation.
Thanks Kees

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

I'll second your thanks to Kees, Knuckleball. He always brings me back to earth and closer to the table when I read his thoughts on short pips play. Like you, I'm one of a handful of short pips players in my community, or so it seems. I have found a couple traditional Chinese penhold players using short pips, and I ask them a question or two after observing their play. I mostly play and practice against inverted players, and I find that I can easily get lulled into their tempos and rhythms, and then I'm toast with short pips. It takes much concentration to stay quick and close to the table when surrounded by inverted culture. When in Rome, do what He Zhi Wen would do, no matter what others might say.

I've been taking a group clinic these past couple months, too, and have had to remember to reformulate some of the coaching into what makes sense for pips. Against fishing, an inverted player will often hit at the top of the bounce or later, but that doesn't makes sense for short pips players who should hit with power and placement on the rise. Against a long back spin serve to my backhand, I was being coached to pivot and loop, but that comes off the short pips rubber as a slow, not too spinny shot -- not advantageous at all. As a modern penholder, I think I should just hit a traditional backhand over the net or loop with a reverse backhand using my inverted side, a stroke that I'm still working on. Even at this mainly all inverted clinic, drills, footwork practice, and strategy have been helpful, and reformulating what's said so it fits pips has helped me to articulate the differences between the two rubbers.

Last night, I practiced and played at an open play evening with our local club. I have a lot to integrate into my muscle memory and mind, even simple things like really watching the ball and my opponents paddle, basic footwork, etc. So last night my rediscovery around all that inverted logic was about seeing the rise and the ball and then executing the shot with the needed angle and level of power.

For me, the hardest shot to return are fast and deep balls to my backhand. Getting the angle and power right on my traditional backhand is one of my learning objectives, since I don't always have the speed or skill to use the reverse backhand. I'm upping my practice time to work on this weakness I have (one of many).

One thing I'm saying to myself now is that one can't be polite in this short pips game. Be quick and assertive (whether softly at the net or with power). Speed is essential. The table is small for a reason.

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Blade: Stiga Classic Clipper (Penhold)
FH: Friendship 802-40 (2.0 mm)
BH (RPB): Friendship Higher (2.0 mm)

Knuckle ball You don't have to give it up entirely, you can integrate defence in attack (or the other way round). Take a long look at the video's of Pascal Tröger (video section, pimples/anti, or Youtube). It may not look like much, and it is very unconventional indeed, but it is also brilliant. He is defending (and attacking) with his backhand long pimples, producing lots of difficult half-long backspin balls, but when the opportunity arises attacks with his short pimples forehand. He has to come in fast for those attacking shots, so he has to read the game right and anticipate. Tactics for this mixed style consist of stopping the opponent's attack mostly with your backhand defence (which means your own placement should force the opponent to play into your backhand "reach" - this is very important) and counter-attacking as soon as the opponent stops attacking or produces weak attacks; for counter-attacks with LP (aggressive push, hit) and SP (hit) you have to return to the table, so your max distance to the table when defending should be about a table-length, preferably less. Your soft-sponged 802 will work for this tactics; and so will your 1615 OX. The difficulty is not the equipment but your mind-set: you have to defend with the continuous intent to attack, so you have to stay sharp and be ready to move very fast at any moment. Getting slow, waiting too much for the balls, is the greatest danger.

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Without opponent, no match.

JwpdxIn my opinion, f you are able and willing to perform the traditional backhand, you shouldn't use the reverse backhand until your "traditional skill" is complete, and perhaps not at all, ever. The reverse penholder backhand is a mixed blessing; it allows you to attack some balls you can't with traditional strokes, but that doesn't mean it is an improvement per se - with traditional strokes it is always possible to create the opportunity for attack if you can't attack rightaway. A short backspin ball to your backhand side you can push, placing short; then you have the time to move into position to attack the return - you have to place well, so you can predict the placement of the return. A half-long backspin ball you can still push, or roll with traditional backhand stroke, picking the ball up on the rise (take He Zhiwen as an example for this); you have to roll it fast, though, or your return will be weak. You can do the same with a long backspin ball, but you have to stand a bit away from the table for it. If the ball takes you by surprise, a backhand chop is a good emergency stroke - it used to be a standard basic stroke with single-sided pips-out penholders! It is quickly and easy to do and produces a low ball with lots of backspin. But most of the time you will see the long backspin ball coming and if you stand at least about a foot away from the table you should have the time to step around your backhand and hit (not roll, not loop) the ball on the rise for a straight winner, for serving deep with some speed means in almost every case sacrificing some backspin, so the serve is really a weak one coming from most opponents. Only a defender, having slow and very spinny inverted, will be able to serve deep with lots of backspin and against a defender you can actually roll the ball back as he will most likely chop instead of attack.
The trick is to let the blade and rubber do the work for you; don't use power yourself against fast balls if you block them, just get the angle right and place accurately - the ball will have speed enough rebounding, stay low because you don't press it upward (which you are likely to do when you use force), and land on the table. Good placement and the slight reversal of your pips will do enough to make this a difficult ball for your opponent. If the ball comes too high to block it comfortably, you have been too slow, waiting too long before making contact. Make sure you are in the right place, that is more important than using force; reaching for the ball will tend to compromise your bat-angle, so your return will go high and/or long.
A tip: best placement for backhand block is nearly always cutting one of the sidelines. To do this, you have to contact the ball as soon as possible, to get the best angle. So make contact without force and early, if it is possible over the table, just redirecting the ball; and then be ready for the return, which will almost certainly be weak and high, so you should hit it for a winner with your forehand.
Using force on backhand blocks is only necessary when you punch diagonally to move your opponent to his far backhand or away from the table, or when you go for a winner along the line. A fast diagonal block is easiest, because you have the longest distance for the ball to land. Along the line you have to time it right: wait for the ball to get its best height, which is when you can punch it in a straight line to the other half of the table. Remember to make the stroke a short one at all times - making it long means stretching your arm, which will open your bat; you have to contact the ball when your arm is still well and crooked and you can't follow through to full stretch either. Really punch; don't stroke.
But if you keep having trouble with you backhand blocking, especially when balls tend to go long, you might consider changing the blade and/or the rubber. The best blocking short pip is in my opinion Friendship 802-1 in 2.0 mm. It is fast, offers good grip for accurate placement, but takes on little incoming spin so it tends to return the ball shorter than 802, and also flatter. It also hits very well. As it doesn't produce a lot of spin, you'll need 2.0mm thickness to be able to roll and serve effectively with it; or if you can get it, in 1.8 mm on a sponge that is softer than its standard sponge. The best blades for blocking are those with a cork&balsa core, like LKT Lord of the Balance, or Friendship Bomb; the cork and balsa help to take off the excess of speed on "passive" blocking (and give extra power on active hits, without making the throw higher). These blades are fast, but very controlled with blocking, and they hit very accurately. They are cheap, too.

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Without opponent, no match.

Kees your words of wisdom are like rays of hope on my dark-side ways. I appreciate your suggestions to help me improve.

Yes I have seen some of Pascal Troger's videos. His hulking prescence and long arms makes his style seem simple yet quite effective. I will look for more of his games.

And I have a 729 Bomb which I will clean and reseal ready for pips. I haven't tried this blade on pips before. I can feel that it will be nice and fast with my 802. I will try my new Neptune and/or 955 Ox on this one.

Now back to the tables and sweat it out. Thanks Kees

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

Hi Kees,
I agree with you that the RPB is a mixed blessing. It adds a layer of complexity (an added stroke from the flip side of the blade) while creating a short cut (attacking shots instead of setting up the next shot), and it mixes inverted thinking with pips thinking. I'm using it more selectively now since going to short pips on my FH side, and I'm spending much more time practicing (becoming better reacquainted with) my traditional penhold backhand. I learned the penhold grip from a Korean coach one day back in 1980 when I was 17 (and it felt really natural for me) and then hardly played table tennis at all, with the exception of a couple student dorm competitions when I lived in Germany in the mid and late 80's. When I came back to this game in 2011, finding out about the RPB was exciting, and I was really curious, so I spent hours working on it. Not the best strategic move.
I'm also curious, when you say "roll" a shot, is that a flip/flick you're talking about?
Thanks for all your insights.

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Blade: Stiga Classic Clipper (Penhold)
FH: Friendship 802-40 (2.0 mm)
BH (RPB): Friendship Higher (2.0 mm)

@jwpdx

"Rolling" refers to the stroke with pips that is generally used for lifting backspin balls behind the table; going almost vertically upwards with a vertical held bat, you make the ball (on the rise, or on its highest point) bounce back and help it upwards against its tendency (due to the backspin) to go down, so ideally it goes low over the net, having some topspin. It depends on the kind of SP how much topspin is on the ball and whether it is there because of aided reversal (classic pips) or imparted extra spin (modern softer grippy pips). It is called "rolling" because you kind of roll the ball over your bat - not really, of course, but that's the feeling. It is different from a lifting stroke with inverted in that you make hardly any friction; in fact, you can basically do the same stroke with LP in OX. You can (with your bat closed a bit) also "roll" against no-spin or topspin, especially when you are forced to make contact when the ball is going down again, but on the rise as well to confuse the opponent, who will expect heavy topspin and get weak topspin, and net the ball.

The added value of reverse penholder backhand is that you will be able to lift/attack backspin balls that land in your backhand area, specifically in the triangle which you get when drawing a line from the middle of the net to the middle of the backhand sideline. With single-sided penholder you have to push there against backspin. There is nothing against a good push, but on a pro level you will want to be able (mostly) to attack any incoming ball if you have the slightest chance of winning the initiative with it. But there are classic solutions/alternatives as well: stepping around your backhand to do a fast flick (landing deep) is one of them. The risk is your opponent will get to it and place the next to your wide forehand, but since you only flick if there is good chance of getting the ball right, this isn't all that likely. If the ball is too short or having too much backspin to flick it, you push; but you would have to do that even if you had rpb.

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Without opponent, no match.

Hi Kees,

I've finally ordered a Friendship 729 Bomb penhold blade. I had to order it on eBay from Hong Kong, since it doesn't seem available from any of the onsite vendors in the US. I think I'll try the 802-1. Do you recommend red or black and what sponge thickness would you suggest?

Thanks, too, for your explanation of rolling the ball. I've been practicing with some success. I've also notice that a push with a quick short stroke is working well against long fast underspin serves to my backhand. The return is low and tends to drop soon after passing the net.

I'm curious about the role of turning the core when playing pips. Hip and shoulder turn are important for inverted players who play further from the table and use more power. It seems that the turn is minimal over the table when playing pips, unless the ball is high and I want to hit a counter drive or smash. I notice this when I watch Liu Gouliang and He Zhi Wen. Coming from inverted, it takes me a lot of focus to stay over the table and to hit on the rise. Your rapier / broadsword distinction on the pipfacts website is a helpful metaphor. I just need to stay present closer to the table.

I'm curious about this shot with pips where one hits through spin soon off the bounce. It's kind of like a slap. Blade is slightly open against underspin and almost perpendicular to the table against over spin and hit slightly later, at least this is how I perceive it. Angle and timing seem essential. Does this shot have a name?

Again, I appreciate the short pips conversation on this forum. SP players are hard to find in Portland, Oregon. I played against a former SP player last night who said he stopped because it was too hard. He's now playing inverted FH and LP on his backhand. I'm totally curious about short pips despite the learning curve.

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Blade: Stiga Classic Clipper (Penhold)
FH: Friendship 802-40 (2.0 mm)
BH (RPB): Friendship Higher (2.0 mm)

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Without opponent, no match.

Hi Kees,
The shot I mentioned is likely just a forehand hit against low balls over the table; there's no flick action. The axis point is at the elbow. The ball then returns low to the opponents side somewhat dead, from what I observe. With a lighter touch, I've also returned the ball low and at a sharp angle.

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Blade: Stiga Classic Clipper (Penhold)
FH: Friendship 802-40 (2.0 mm)
BH (RPB): Friendship Higher (2.0 mm)

Okay, I get it. I don't know how to call it; technically every shot over the table is a flick, if it is not a drive or smash, but that doesn't say much, as there is obviously a grey area between flicks and drives, as there is one between drives and smashes. Doesn't matter either; if it works for you, that should be the main thing.
What exactly do you want to know about it?

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Without opponent, no match.