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PostPosted: 14 Aug 2014, 16:34 
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check this



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PostPosted: 20 Aug 2014, 16:10 
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Thanks bbkon for that excellent video!

Johnny had to swing "up" with his short pips against those chops, he was hitting SP loops!

The match sure was a long one!

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PostPosted: 20 Aug 2014, 20:07 
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Wow, surprising that he would try to loop instead of hit through it. :o

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PostPosted: 20 Aug 2014, 21:13 
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I don't think he is looping - the contact is very solid, not a brush stroke. I had a training session against a heavy chopper and I ended doing something similar, you keep the bat vertical, but contact hard into the ball and follow through high. Juanito does something different, he opens the bat up and hits from below against heavy shoppers

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PostPosted: 20 Aug 2014, 21:46 
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90% of the time in the video he is looping. he zhi wen also does it when the ball is too flat/low and has too much underspin to hit it flat through. wang zeng yi i would say of all players has the biggest tendency of trying to avoid looping the ball...

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PostPosted: 21 Aug 2014, 01:39 
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AA are you sure about juanito? I've watched so many of his matches against choppers in slo mo, and very often that elbowy upward shot he makes has the bat open at contact, although obviously I could have got that wrong. i do know that with leopard if i try and loop the ball falls into the net, same as with 651. With ultra express I could loop

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2014, 19:49 
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This swing up strokes seem to me the same as Juanito's penhold strokes (ex match with Jang Song Man). Isn't it called rolling?

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PostPosted: 27 Aug 2014, 23:33 
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Juanito seems (against strong backspin) to do a shot where the bat ends up above his ear, with basically no forward movement. From what I see, he opens the bat, bends his wrist further back than normal, and hits from below. Although I'm quite prepared to be told I'm wrong. he also rolls.
The strokes in the vid show huang keeping the blade very very slightly closed (to my eyes), and contacting from behind the ball, with the stroke finishing in front i.e. there is forward movt. But then again, I could be very very wrong!

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PostPosted: 11 Sep 2014, 03:58 
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With short pips (even OX) heavy backspin as produced by good choppers grips the rubber and balls have to be lifted with an almost open bat and an upward stroke. It takes less energy than with inverted, but it is still hard work. As I see it, Huang varies speed on his lifts until the ball comes high enough for him to hit through it - but even then, again heavy backspin, the blade has to be almost open and the action has to be partly upward or the ball will end up in the net.
I used to think that using SP a player would have better odds against a chopper than a player using inverted, but having played double-sided SP myself for quite a while, I now think that things are a bit more complicated than that. SP is less sensitive to incoming spin, but will make less spin as well, so you are unable to trouble the defender by feeding him very heavy topspin; instead you have to vary the spin and the speed, which requires patience. Huang is very good at that and, like He Zhiwen, surprisingly patient when playing a defender. Good discipline!

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PostPosted: 11 Sep 2014, 11:52 
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I have a chance to feel the spin from Jonny's "loop" I can tell you it's has about the same spin as inverted rubber.


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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2014, 13:55 
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Chopper88! That is very COOL that you played Johnny Huang! You must have played TT at a VERY high level!!!!

Do you care to tell us a bit about your playing experience? (if you are busy, even a couple sentences if you have time)

:Chop:

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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2014, 17:07 
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Chopper88 wrote:
I have a chance to feel the spin from Jonny's "loop" I can tell you it's has about the same spin as inverted rubber.

A special and valuable experience!
But you may have missed my point, or I may have made it insufficiently clear: the spin on the ball that Huang returns will be and must be heavy, but using SP he cannot make (all of) it himself, and therefore has to adapt his tactics accordingly.

I think it is like this (I hope this won't be boring).
When an incoming ball having backspin is returned with an upward stroke, the direction of the incoming rotation (up) is the same as the direction of the stroke (up). If the rotation is not changed (by adding spin or taking it away, grazing the ball) or compensated (by adapting the blade's angle), on contact with the rubber the upward action of the ball will (because of the friction) evoke a downward action of the rubber: the ball will travel downward. The spin that will still be on it (now topspin) will push it downward as well. The player has, therefore, to compensate for this and lift the ball.

If the rubber makes little friction with the ball, like anti or LP, much of the rotation will continue and stay on the ball when it is returned, regardless of the action of the player. As friction is low, the ball will travel hardly downward, so the player has to lift the ball only a little. Opening the bat a bit will be enough, but the angle has to be correct, as the angle is much the largest factor influencing the return path of the ball. Friction, needed to make or change spin, is a far smaller factor. If the grazing action that will produce friction with LP as well is fast, the upward/forward rotation of the ball can be increased a bit. However, never enough by itself to lift the ball; the angle of the bat is decisive. Heavy incoming backspin will be, therefore, returned as heavy outgoing topspin, mostly regardless of the capacity of the rubber to make spin - as long as the action of the blade has the same direction as the rotation of the ball.

An SP rubber makes much more friction, but (generally) not quite enough to take away all of the incoming rotation on the ball. In fact, this is its desired quality. There will be enough friction for a heavy backspin ball to travel downward quite fast on contact, so it will have to be lifted. Some of the rotation on the ball will continue, as the friction does not by itself stop it; this means that adding spin to the ball is relatively easy, for the rubber does not have to match in speed the rotation on the ball - as long as it is pretty fast, grazing will add spin and prevent the ball from moving downward on contact with the rubber. But the added spin will not suffice; the angle of the bat has to compensate part of the downward direction as well. This is why lifting backspin balls using SP is relatively easy as far as power and speed are concerned, but still demands precise angling of the blade. The outgoing spin on the ball may be a bit less than the incoming spin (if most of the compensation comes from angling the blade, and grazing is relative slow), but can also be a bit more (if grazing is fast) and therefore be very heavy. Actually, the main problem for the player using SP is the outgoing speed: because friction is still relatively low, the blade has to be open, and as a result contact with the ball will be solid, so it is hard to lift the ball and add little forward speed. It is also hard to pull the ball up high. As a rule, returning backspin balls a player will produce medium to high speed balls that have a low arc. This means that balls can only touch down in a limited part of the other half of the table, viz. closer to the baseline than to the net. Typically, SP attackers will, if they make a mistake, overshoot the table (not land the ball in the net, as inverted players will). Classic SP tactics against a chopper consist therefore in placing the ball in roughly the same place a number of times, varying its speed somewhat, and then change placement to the other side, increasing speed, to mess up the timing of the chopper and make him miss or return weakly. If the SP is very grippy, you can also vary the spin, but not by a lot. All in all, the SP rubber will make the attacker rather safe against (the backspin of) a chopper, but limiting his placement it will also allow him only limited attack, so matches may take quite a while...

An inverted rubber produces very high friction and an incoming heavy backspin ball will on contact really race downward. Lifting the ball, the player has to make sure his handspeed matches very closely the rotation of the ball; if the handspeed (grazing speed) is slower, he will stop part of the spin of the ball and it will go down. If he more or less matches the speed of the rotation, spin will be continued and he will return as much spin as he got. He can add to that by increasing the handspeed. This takes a lot of power, and hence the basic strategy of a chopper against an inverted attacker is to wear him out (that strategy will work less well against an SP attacker, and not at all against LP). As almost all of the lifting is done by the friction (and grazing speed) of the rubber, the blade's angle is far less important. Lifting backspin balls with inverted takes a lot of power, but less precision. Placement is easier as well: the ball can be pulled up in high arcs, because of the friction, and so almost any part of the table is available for placement. But even a little lack of power will make lifting insufficient and the ball will end up in the net. With inverted, more spin can be added to the incoming spin (to trouble the chopper), but this takes heaps of power. As a lot of power is already needed for lifting, adding power to the outgoing speed is hard as well. So, it is far more easy and safe to change only the placement, left to right, short to long, to move the chopper around and invite mistakes. Typically, adding power is only used against the weak balls that will result from the mistakes.

So, Huang will return heavy topspin, but he will not actually make it, for he will mostly use the incoming spin on the ball. Chinese standard tactics for choppers warn against this and prescribe putting pressure on the corners of the table (to mess up the attacker's timing), as well as counter-attack (to take away the spin the attacker is using), as a remedy. This is what Ding Song does.
Few of Huangs returns go into the net, but he overshoots the table several times; this is normal for a SP attacker, as placement is difficult and he has to take risks.
It is also normal for a match between a good SP attacker and a good defender to be close and take long - fortunately, for it is a pleasure to watch!

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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2014, 17:38 
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Excellent description Keys. The only thing I would add is that in rubbers (like my leopard) with soft sponge, depending on the degree of incoming spin, burying the ball into the sponge can produce a degree of mechanical lift. With 651 i had to open the bat much more than with leopard- Or at least I think that was happening

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PostPosted: 12 Sep 2014, 18:49 
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julian wrote:
Excellent description Keys. The only thing I would add is that in rubbers (like my leopard) with soft sponge, depending on the degree of incoming spin, burying the ball into the sponge can produce a degree of mechanical lift. With 651 i had to open the bat much more than with leopard- Or at least I think that was happening

Yes, you are right, good addition. There is the same mechanical lift in anti rubbers with soft sponge (which as a rule makes anti easier to attack with than LP). In itself the mechanical lift offered by the sponge is a small factor; but as it is effective in combination with the grip of the topsheet, SP with soft sponge can offer substantially more grip than the same topsheet with a harder sponge. There is a similar difference, though less, between thin sponge and thick sponge with the same SP topsheet.

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PostPosted: 13 Sep 2014, 00:10 
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glennholder wrote:
Chopper88! That is very COOL that you played Johnny Huang! You must have played TT at a VERY high level!!!!

Do you care to tell us a bit about your playing experience? (if you are busy, even a couple sentences if you have time)

:Chop:


Not at all , I do not play at a high level!! I met him when he first arrived to NA and he stay with us for about a year on and off , so I got to play with him and got some coaching


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