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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2008, 19:11 
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kagin wrote:
agooding2 wrote:
I do think though that there are equivalents to the jab in table tennis though. Here's why, and apologies in advance to non-boxing fans (or just skip down past the next four paragraphs):


From a tactical point of view i absolutely agree there are many parallels that can be seen. In that realm, serves, pushes, chops, blocks, etc are all useful as setup shots. Personally i go into a lot of matches with a rope-a-dope strategy.

However i was looking purely at the physical aspect in response to the thought that shakehanders "cannot" use punch-like shots. It's not that they can't, it's that they have better ways to do things. There are shakehanders who punch (dave sakai for example) but they're not known as big power players.


Okay, I can see that. Thanks for prompting me to get my thoughts together on the subject, even if I did misunderstand your point.

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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2008, 19:19 
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agooding2 wrote:
bbkon wrote:
she let the pips dries EXACTLY 30 minutes after she pours glue

you will see the spectol is as thick as the inverted

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54006453@N00/2531821750/


wouldnt be 1st time ITTF post unprecisse information


Thanks for posting the photo but telling the precise thickness of the sponge from that photo is beyond me. We're looking at most at 1 mm difference. All I can tell is that there's significant overhang on both sides.


the smooth rubber is as thick as the pips's sponge, dont believe anything ITTF post , sharara is on charge


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2008, 19:31 
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regarding wlq, i saw sometime ago in cttv4, how wlq ripped many loops to some kids playing with SP and old dhs bladesand this was a training session, the kids could return many hard loops, i thought that kind of blades were obsolete, they werent so stylish but able to stop 4-6 loops close to the table

i wish somebody could post what TSP sponge HSW is using,also do you guys remember ding yi the mad player from austria?


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PostPosted: 14 Jun 2008, 22:44 
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hookshot wrote:
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The spin gets faster as the ball raises? Don't think so.


I agree. Speed and spin decrease because of air resistance, nothing else, so there is a gradual waning of both. Simple physics. But I hear lots of mystical-like theories when I hear players talking, including some who maintain that with certain inverted rubbers the ball will start spinning more after the bounce. :shock:

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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2008, 01:20 
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Kees wrote:
I agree. Speed and spin decrease because of air resistance, nothing else, so there is a gradual waning of both. Simple physics. But I hear lots of mystical-like theories when I hear players talking, including some who maintain that with certain inverted rubbers the ball will start spinning more after the bounce. :shock:


Perpetuum mobile, anyone? :D

All in all, the physics of table tennis aren't very difficult, anyone with a bit of common sense can understand that balls don't start spinning faster out of the blue...

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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2008, 02:58 
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jasper wrote
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All in all, the physics of table tennis aren't very difficult, anyone with a bit of common sense can understand that balls don't start spinning faster out of the blue...


Well, common sense might not be that common. I'm a member of two clubs in the north of the Netherlands, and in both of them adults with over 30 yrs of expericience goggle when my eldest, Wolfert, age 13, is displaying his skills in single-sided penholder pips out play. They keep telling me he will be beaten by anyone who simply serves deep at his backhand, and when his opponents do, he kills the ball instantly with a backhand sweep (I don't know the Chinese technical term, although I do know the technique). Then the same people will disgustedly tell me that this isn't table-tennis... In his class, 1st division (one class below national league), he's champion now in the three northern provinces. Common sense, indeed... Confound them, I say, their common sense included! And bless you, Jasper, for having a truly clear mind!

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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2008, 08:40 
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kagin wrote:

However i was looking purely at the physical aspect in response to the thought that shakehanders "cannot" use punch-like shots. It's not that they can't, it's that they have better ways to do things. There are shakehanders who punch (dave sakai for example) but they're not known as big power players.



I am a shakehander and my 1970s era trainer-coach (from 12 years ago) would always tell me when we were practicing close to the table FH shots to twist my torso (to the right) and to "punch" the ball. This was how he called out the stroke.

He said that using the twist of the torso and the shoulders was more stable than swinging ones arms in situations in the heat of counter hitting battles when your time to react was almost nil.

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PostPosted: 15 Jun 2008, 23:41 
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Amateur 101 wrote:
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He said that using the twist of the torso and the shoulders was more stable than swinging ones arms in situations in the heat of counter hitting battles when your time to react was almost nil.


Your coach is absolutely right, still, in my opinion. It is more stable, but actually it also generates more power, because the muscles of the torso are much heavier and stronger than the arm muscles. The only reason why modern players like Ma Lin or Wang Liqin use such big gestures when looping is that this wide-swung way of looping generates more and speed and spin - not because they are using their arms more (they do NOT, they use their legs and upper body and let the arm swing because of their body rotation), but because the trajectory of their bat is wider this way, which means the bat has a higher trajectoral speed (wider circle means travelling further in the same time, hence faster). However, they only use this giant loop when there is enough time to do so; when there is less time, their loop is smaller. Of course, this stroke is only for play with inverted. With pips, you should make the gesture as small as possible, always. The biggest gesture you make is when smashing all-out, but watch a vid of Johnny Huang and see how little upswing he uses for even this stroke.

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Kees wrote:
With pips, you should make the gesture as small as possible, always. The biggest gesture you make is when smashing all-out, but watch a vid of Johnny Huang and see how little upswing he uses for even this stroke.


To be specific, are you referring to Huang's entire swing or only the upswing portion?

By the way, does anyone here know if there any more videos of Johnny Huang aside from the ones on youtube?

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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2008, 04:00 
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Amateru 101 wrote:
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To be specific, are you referring to Huang's entire swing or only the upswing portion?


Upswing only. The follow-through is just a matter of relaxing the muscles while keeping balanced (which is very important; you almost never see him lose his balance, always rotating his body keeping its centre axis vertical). For the upswing he rotates his body clockwise, but doesn't bring the arm back at all, just brings his bat up close behind the ball, then unwinds and hits, and follows through. It is a very snappy, very precise motion and you rarely see him miss a ball with it.

The only videos I know of are Huang vs. Samsonov, Karakasevic (twice), Smirnov, and Boll, plus a less clear one vs David Zhuang, and a few short takes that aren't too good either. There also seems to be a dvd set you can buy of the Olympics in Atlanta ('96) which includes Huang beating Waldner in the quarter finals.

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amateur101 wrote:
I am a shakehander and my 1970s era trainer-coach (from 12 years ago) would always tell me when we were practicing close to the table FH shots to twist my torso (to the right) and to "punch" the ball. This was how he called out the stroke.

He said that using the twist of the torso and the shoulders was more stable than swinging ones arms in situations in the heat of counter hitting battles when your time to react was almost nil.

Perhaps we have different views on what a "punch" is. To me a punch (particularly a quick jab punch) is largely characterized by a straightening of the body and arm. This is opposed to a swing which is characterized by rotation of the body and arm. I think you should be swinging on most shots.


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Kees, I'm glad to see your son having success with a style which is unconventional (in Europe at least). I've always rooted for the people who like to do things differently than the majority of the crowd. In competitive play, I have never faced a penhold player, and I can understand that your son takes good advantage of this with his penhold, pips-out game. But this advantage alone won't make him the champ, I bet natural talent and your coaching play a big part in his success.

Keep up the good work! Maybe one day people will understand that different doesn't mean wrong!

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PostPosted: 16 Jun 2008, 05:28 
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kagin wrote:
amateur101 wrote:
I am a shakehander and my 1970s era trainer-coach (from 12 years ago) would always tell me when we were practicing close to the table FH shots to twist my torso (to the right) and to "punch" the ball. This was how he called out the stroke.

He said that using the twist of the torso and the shoulders was more stable than swinging ones arms in situations in the heat of counter hitting battles when your time to react was almost nil.

Perhaps we have different views on what a "punch" is. To me a punch (particularly a quick jab punch) is largely characterized by a straightening of the body and arm. This is opposed to a swing which is characterized by rotation of the body and arm. I think you should be swinging on most shots.


Yes, the jab is a straight punch and I really only see it on the backhand with penholders. Chiang Peng Leung has the best one in recent memory.

However, if you think of another kind of punch, a hook, has very similar body mechanics to a table tennis stroke, especially from the strong side (as a right hook by a right hander).

Straighten the arm and that becomes a roundhouse punch. There isn't really an Asian martial art equivalent that I'm familiar with, besides the elbow thrown by a Thai kickboxer (who of course can also punch with a hook, but both may have been from Western influence).

No real equivalent on the backhand, maybe that's why mine was always inferior. Frisbee is the best equivalent I can think of.

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PostPosted: 17 Jun 2008, 04:13 
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agooding2 wrote:

Yes, the jab is a straight punch and I really only see it on the backhand with penholders. Chiang Peng Leung has the best one in recent memory.

However, if you think of another kind of punch, a hook, has very similar body mechanics to a table tennis stroke, especially from the strong side (as a right hook by a right hander).



With respect to the "punch" that my coach had been telling me, I believe he was referring more to the movement of the torso and shoulder to generate power. This was probably his analogy. He would often say this when I was practicing hitting close to table.

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Stiga Clipper CR WRB
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amateur101 wrote:
agooding2 wrote:

Yes, the jab is a straight punch and I really only see it on the backhand with penholders. Chiang Peng Leung has the best one in recent memory.

However, if you think of another kind of punch, a hook, has very similar body mechanics to a table tennis stroke, especially from the strong side (as a right hook by a right hander).



With respect to the "punch" that my coach had been telling me, I believe he was referring more to the movement of the torso and shoulder to generate power. This was probably his analogy. He would often say this when I was practicing hitting close to table.


Right, that's exactly what a hook is, use your legs to rotate your torso to generate power. The arm really doesn't do much of anything at all.

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