OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Yes, but some players like Liu Guolinag and Johnny Haung preferred very spinny short pips, first TSP Spinpips, later for Liu (after Spin Pips were banned) either Clippa or 802-40 depending on who you believe.

I found Clippa felt softer than the 802-40 with 35 sponge. Both will give more spin than 802, not sure how much difference between them.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Andrew is right, modern male short pips pro's prefer the more spinny kind of pips in general. He Zhi Wen is an exception, but he plays with a fairly thick sponge (2.0 mm) which on a penhold frame comes more or less down to the same thing. The reason for this transition is the increase in spin-capacity of inverted rubbers (since the late 80's, early 90's, due to gluing and innovative rubber technology) combined with the increase in speed (although this is off-set a bit by the introduction of the 40 mm ball): you can block any incoming ball just fine with short pips, spinny or not, but if you want to be able to actively counter-attack, hitting a fast heavy topspin ball back with almost full force, you need to produce topspin yourself. Spinny pips are, naturally, better at this than less spinny pips. This does not mean that when you are using spinny pips your basic pips-stroke changes significantly; you should go on hitting through the ball very crisply, and at the most close your bat a bit more. Hitting with spinny pips is definetely NOT a hybrid form of looping! You should produce topspin by making solid contact with the back of the ball and at the same time use your wrist to rub the ball fast and upward - but this rubbing action is a very small movement, less than an inch! You can get a good feel for this by doing the following: step well back from the table, toss the ball, let it drop till it is between hip and knee, and hit it lob-like over the net with your bat facing forward (vertical) trying to make as much topspin as possible with as small (but ferocious) a wrist-action as you can. Watch the result: if the ball rushes away when bouncing, you are getting there...

Female players are much less bothered by all this, since their female opponents don't hit as hard as male players (maybe with the exception of Guo Ye). They do not really need spinny pips. Classic short pips (799, 802) are still frequently used by female top players.

So the choice for spinny or less spinny pips partly depends on what kind of opponent you are up against, and partly on what kind of style you prefer to play. In my opinion, a male amateur blocker/hitter would be fine with less spinny pips, profiting from the spin-reversal they allow. But a high level allround attacker could probably put to good use pips that are more spinny.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.

Nice post. Shigang Yang, former Chinese top player and #15 in the U.S. also prefers 802, but uses ultra soft 28 hardness 2.3 mm sponge.

David Zhuang, top penholder in the U.S. for many years used to use Rein 1.5, then changed to 1.7 Speedy P.O. and now is supposedly using Flarestorm. With the decreased spin of the 40 mm ball, spinnier short pips with slightly thicker sponges seem to make more sense.

Still, for most amateurs, spin generation and speed aren't the key issues, control is which is what I suggest thinner sponges.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Yep, control is what counts here. That's why the 799 in 1.5 or 1.8 mm is almost always the right choice for amateur players who start with pips: enough speed, lots of control, spin if you need it. I think the Double Happiness 652 (in 1.8 mm) is a good alternative or follow-up; not quite as cheap, but a bit faster and spinnier, and it has more gears.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.

I've been wanting to try 652 and 651 sometime, I'll probably get some sheets next time I order from Alex. I think both Jiang Jialiang and He Zhi Wen used 652. 651 is of course the classic fast attack short pip.

I am amused by those who want to try short pips and spend $30-40 on a first sheet when they can find out if they will work with a $10-15 Chinese short pip. If they can't control 799 or 802 or 802-40 then Spectol or Flarestorm certainly isn't going to work for them.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Andrew wrote:



So it is. Or was. I have it on a allround shakehand frame in 2.0 mm and it works fine, but is fast and sometimes lacks control. I've played with the 652 in 1.5, 1.8, and 2.0 mm on penholder frames and it is an OK rubber, with more control than the 651, but less well suited for quick attack (hitting through the ball with spin reversal); certainly much less than 802 or 802-1. In both DHS rubbers I didn't quite like the sponge. It is too springy, yet not real soft enough to allow you to manipulate that springiness at will, as it is in the 802-40 Supersoft Pro. But that is probably due to my (lack of) technique. I like medium to hard sponges better.
If you prefer the 802-1 over the 802-40, my guess would be that you won't like the DHS rubbers much better than I do, unless you are looking for real spinny stuff with a medium hard feel. I've got another suggestion for you, though: Xu Shao Fa 889 in 1.5 mm. That one is pretty old-fashioned or classic, if you like, too. It is very fast (a bit faster than the 802, and certainly faster than the 802-1) and spinny (same thing compared to 802, maybe at par with the 802-1), but still cheaper than the DHS rubbers.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.

Thanks, good info about the DHS. Finding the right sponge is key

I have a sheet of Globe 889 but the smoother harder pips makes it more difficult to generate spin compared to 802, even on a very soft sponge. It remeinds me a little of Stiga Royal, very fast but not much spin.

When my coach who uses 802 tried 889 he thought it acted more like medium pips. I have a sheet of C7 and it feels similarly hard to generate spin, though the thinner sponge makes it a bit slower.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Andrew wrote:




Maybe the greater dwelling-time of the Black Whirlwind made the rubber spinnier, then? I haven't tried the 802 on that frame. The 652 on it was a bit too slow and wouldn't reverse spin.

_________________
Without opponent, no match.

Certainly possible, I think I had it on a Yasaka Max Wood blade which is quite hard and doesn't allow much dwell time at all. Felt good though.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Very well said.

My attacks with the 802 seemed awkward maybe because I had not fully adjusted yet. But I could not seem to get enough speed on the ball. I guess I was so careful on not hitting it too strong and thus overshoot.

The spin reversal of 802 gave some headaches to looping opponents but it did not make me feel in "control' and was always at the back of my mind (if that means anything).

Now all that makes me think of getting spinnier pips. when I used the Clippa on FH it seemed "easier'. I guess thats a vestige of my using inverted before.

I am considering trying out the 802-40 2.0 mm with 35 degrees quattro sponge.

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TSP Spectol Soft - 2.1 mm - FH
TSP Spectol 21 - 2.1 mm - BH
Stiga Clipper CR WRB
--------------and--------------------
TSP Spinpips 21 - 2.0 mm - FH
TSP Spectol 21 - 2.1 mm - BH
BBC 9-10-9

I found the 2 mm Quattro sponge, even in 35 degrees too fast and springy. You might try the regular Saviga sponge instead. If you like Clippa than 802-40 or 802-1 make sense to try, or just use Clippa.

I also found the spinnier short pips helpful in moving from inverted. Clippa is one of the spinnier pips out there though, 802-40 might not make a big difference spin wise and Clippa has a nice consistent sponge.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

I have tried Quattro sponge before (on inverted) and it does seem too springy and may pose issues.

I shall try another sponge.

It looks like I shall have to resurrect my Clippa (over 5 years old but rarely used) for my FH and use 802 2.0 mm BH.

I shall try both sides and see which one fits over all. On the other hand, that combination may even be suitable. I shall find out in the playing session tomorrow.

_________________
TSP Spectol Soft - 2.1 mm - FH
TSP Spectol 21 - 2.1 mm - BH
Stiga Clipper CR WRB
--------------and--------------------
TSP Spinpips 21 - 2.0 mm - FH
TSP Spectol 21 - 2.1 mm - BH
BBC 9-10-9

Makes sense to me, try what you have first and then see if you want to change.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black

Actually, I already tried the 802 2.0 mm FH/Clippa BH combo last Saturday and the 802 2.0 mm/ 802 1.5 mm setup last night.

Note that only the BH differed in this setup.

The Primorac Carbon is heavier with Clippa and was more comfortable since I have been playing with heavy blades for a few months already.
So hitting with the lighter all 802 setup threw me off a bit. I seemed to "like" the heavier weight in flat hitting.

The Clippa required little movement to block because it was so springy. Just angle the blade and off it went.
The thinner 802, I soon learned, require more active punch blocking moves. It has more feel though and more touch shots was possible.
This really required one to flat hit!

I tried twiddling too and it was a nice variation. My practice partner (a good inverted player) said that he could feel the difference of those rubbers as I twiddled in the middle of our medium speed counter hitting exercise.

_________________
TSP Spectol Soft - 2.1 mm - FH
TSP Spectol 21 - 2.1 mm - BH
Stiga Clipper CR WRB
--------------and--------------------
TSP Spinpips 21 - 2.0 mm - FH
TSP Spectol 21 - 2.1 mm - BH
BBC 9-10-9

Yeah, I have to use heavier blades or add lead tape (Butterfly Power Tape works well) to make the blade heavier when I was a single sided penholder.

See how the Clippa feels when playing more actively. You could also try 1.8 sponge and see what that does, on either the Clippa or 802.

_________________
-- Andrew

Spintech All Around Penhold blade
Spinlord Keiler II 1.5 black
Nittaku FastArc G1 red

729 all around blade
Tibhar Grass D-Tec S Red
Nittaku FastArc G1 black