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"Sink effect" meaning
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Author:  drewandmalone [ 09 Jan 2018, 11:12 ]
Post subject:  "Sink effect" meaning

I've heard this phrase a few times, always in the context of SP rubbers. I don't know what it means, and in SP reviews people just seem to take it for granted that everyone knows the definition of this phrase. If someone could tell me what it means, that would be helpful, ty.

Author:  BeGo [ 09 Jan 2018, 19:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

drewandmalone wrote:
I've heard this phrase a few times, always in the context of SP rubbers. I don't know what it means, and in SP reviews people just seem to take it for granted that everyone knows the definition of this phrase. If someone could tell me what it means, that would be helpful, ty.
cmiiw, please.

I take it as the same effect when you spike a balloon flat straight forward, it stopped by air drag and drop to the table.

I don't think it feasible with current 40 mm ball, but quite apparent with 44 mm ball.

Sent from my I7D using Tapatalk

Author:  drewandmalone [ 10 Jan 2018, 01:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

Sounds right to me, ty!

Author:  iskandar taib [ 10 Jan 2018, 15:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

Why don't you give some examples of sentences that contain the words "sink effect"? Maybe we can figure it out by context. It might just another thing like "dwell time" or "flex", which are just two of the very many very vaguely defined terms used by table tennis equipment mavens which mean different things depending on who is saying it.

Iskandar

Author:  nathanso [ 10 Jan 2018, 15:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

With certain rubbers -- mostly thinner-sponged short pips -- when you flat-hit a ball in a low, fast path towards your opponent, sink causes it to unexpectedly and suddenly drop downwards, contacting the table sooner than expected. Think downward wind shear and the effect it has on an airplane. Sink can be very effective, especially when the opponent thinks the ball is going long but sink causes to unexpectedly drop and contact the table. Most SPs don't produce sink. I'm not sure I've seen obvious sink in the 40+ ball era. 563 1.2mm and TSP Spectol both produced significant sink with the 40mm celluloid ball.

Author:  Japsican [ 11 Jan 2018, 00:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

nathanso wrote:
With certain rubbers -- mostly thinner-sponged short pips -- when you flat-hit a ball in a low, fast path towards your opponent, sink causes it to unexpectedly and suddenly drop downwards, contacting the table sooner than expected. Think downward wind shear and the effect it has on an airplane. Sink can be very effective, especially when the opponent thinks the ball is going long but sink causes to unexpectedly drop and contact the table. Most SPs don't produce sink. I'm not sure I've seen obvious sink in the 40+ ball era. 563 1.2mm and TSP Spectol both produced significant sink with the 40mm celluloid ball.


I agree with this description exactly...the wind shear analogy.

Except, I think I still experience it when playing with and against SPs...just less so and usually only with classic SPs. The new ones are too fast and tensor-ish.

Author:  skilless_slapper [ 26 Jan 2018, 02:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

Spectol still gives pretty good sink. From my view, and talking around about it, sink is caused by the spin 'wearing out' on the ball. For example, with top spin balls you can predict where they'll go and how far. Everything is uniform. The ball uses the magnus effect to create that C shaped arc, and it usually has enough spin to maintain that path until the point has ended.

With the lower grip rubbers, say you loop or block back a top spin ball. The other player is used to seeing a top spin ball react a certain way. They think "Ok, it's going to dip about here and bounce about this high off the table." What actually happens though, is that the top spin "wears out" on the ball much sooner than expected. And it was the spin that was both maintaining and giving the ball its expected path. So when it is no longer on the ball, it 'drops' to the table. Similar to LP blocking or low spin chops. Basically, the opponent thinks the ball will go longer than it really will.

A lot of times people will say "It just died on the table there! What happened!?"

Well... that is the spin giving out! I like to think of the spin as giving the ball energy, and when the spin runs out, so does the ball's energy. Hence, it DIES!

Author:  Japsican [ 27 Jan 2018, 03:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

skilless_slapper wrote:
Spectol still gives pretty good sink. From my view, and talking around about it, sink is caused by the spin 'wearing out' on the ball. For example, with top spin balls you can predict where they'll go and how far. Everything is uniform. The ball uses the magnus effect to create that C shaped arc, and it usually has enough spin to maintain that path until the point has ended.

With the lower grip rubbers, say you loop or block back a top spin ball. The other player is used to seeing a top spin ball react a certain way. They think "Ok, it's going to dip about here and bounce about this high off the table." What actually happens though, is that the top spin "wears out" on the ball much sooner than expected. And it was the spin that was both maintaining and giving the ball its expected path. So when it is no longer on the ball, it 'drops' to the table. Similar to LP blocking or low spin chops. Basically, the opponent thinks the ball will go longer than it really will.

A lot of times people will say "It just died on the table there! What happened!?"

Well... that is the spin giving out! I like to think of the spin as giving the ball energy, and when the spin runs out, so does the ball's energy. Hence, it DIES!


To me, this is confusing, because if the ball has top, it will curve downward faster, which to me means the ball should hit sooner than a flat ball with less spin. Balls with less spin tend to sail. Balls with underspin REALLY sail...until they run out of underspin as you describe and then drop due to gravity.

So, by comparison (in my head) a topspin block should hit earlier because the magnus is pulling it down toward the table faster.

However, if the ball from the SP actually has underspin being returned, the spin "running out" theory would apply and it would drop/sink. Perhaps most SPs have reversed spin on blocks initially?

Where as, If you brush with SPs and manage a little topspin, those tend to look like they should hit sooner on the table, but often sail longer due to there being less magnus, if any.

This I know:
Magnus for underspin would keep the ball floating until it runs out. Magnus for topspin would pull the ball down toward the table, but if it runs out of spin it would do so later.

Author:  skilless_slapper [ 27 Jan 2018, 07:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: "Sink effect" meaning

Japsican wrote:
skilless_slapper wrote:
Spectol still gives pretty good sink. From my view, and talking around about it, sink is caused by the spin 'wearing out' on the ball. For example, with top spin balls you can predict where they'll go and how far. Everything is uniform. The ball uses the magnus effect to create that C shaped arc, and it usually has enough spin to maintain that path until the point has ended.

With the lower grip rubbers, say you loop or block back a top spin ball. The other player is used to seeing a top spin ball react a certain way. They think "Ok, it's going to dip about here and bounce about this high off the table." What actually happens though, is that the top spin "wears out" on the ball much sooner than expected. And it was the spin that was both maintaining and giving the ball its expected path. So when it is no longer on the ball, it 'drops' to the table. Similar to LP blocking or low spin chops. Basically, the opponent thinks the ball will go longer than it really will.

A lot of times people will say "It just died on the table there! What happened!?"

Well... that is the spin giving out! I like to think of the spin as giving the ball energy, and when the spin runs out, so does the ball's energy. Hence, it DIES!


To me, this is confusing, because if the ball has top, it will curve downward faster, which to me means the ball should hit sooner than a flat ball with less spin. Balls with less spin tend to sail. Balls with underspin REALLY sail...until they run out of underspin as you describe and then drop due to gravity.

So, by comparison (in my head) a topspin block should hit earlier because the magnus is pulling it down toward the table faster.

However, if the ball from the SP actually has underspin being returned, the spin "running out" theory would apply and it would drop/sink. Perhaps most SPs have reversed spin on blocks initially?

Where as, If you brush with SPs and manage a little topspin, those tend to look like they should hit sooner on the table, but often sail longer due to there being less magnus, if any.

This I know:
Magnus for underspin would keep the ball floating until it runs out. Magnus for topspin would pull the ball down toward the table, but if it runs out of spin it would do so later.


Top spin drags the ball down toward the table. Underspin causes the ball to lift (float) upwards.

I don't think most SPs return backspin off a topspin block - could be dead/light spin depending on the amount coming in. From my perspective when playing with/against them, the amount of spin is exaggerated by the motion. You think it should have X amount of spin based on the stroke, but due to the reduced grip it has less than anticipated -- whether top or chop.

Even with the basic spectol, the guy I was playing started saying "Wooah! Look at dat crazy ball! Just die on table! So crazy!"

Also with top spin, if it was light top spin to start with, then the blocked top spin wouldn't last very long. So they see the top spin ball coming back and expect the regular dip and bounce -- but, the top spin (which was weak to start with), runs out and turns into a dead ball. Now, I'm sure you know how dead balls behave. They can wobble, drop, side to side etc. Although I think most SPs will return dead or light top spin balls, causing them to wobble and land at different times than anticipated. The grippy SPs like joola express ultra are essentially the same blocks as inverted.

But with any of them, if all you do is passive block... they become predictable a short while later. Less spin, different timing etc. all gets figured out.

The underspin blocks happen for me more with LP and anti. However, with anti I rarely ever get any sink effect. The reversal is so clean that the ball acts predictably from start to finish. With the LP, it's not uncommon for people to hold their off-hand out and try to catch the ball... only for it to drop down onto the table. And causing me to cackle maniacally, of course! The SP blocks are not quite as extreme, although they do have the ball dropping off in speed/spin often.

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