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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 03:19 
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When I wrote (somewhile back) my articles about playing with short pips, single-sided penhold or two-winged shakehand, Andrew (Agooding2) pointed out the importance of using topspin on attacking shots. He was practicing with a high-ranked Chinese player at the time (as I remember this player used heavily glued Friendship 802 with thick sponge) who urged him to add topspin as he made more aggressive shots. It is a fact that since the 1990's short pips which are capable of spin have hit the market and the most recent assets in this field have nearly all been spinny pips. The reason for this is exactly the thing Andrew pointed out - one needs topspin to get the fast attacks on the table.
Why didn't Jiang Jialiang, Chen Longcan and their contemporaries need the same amount of spin? They played with the 38 mm ball which, because of the pace it made possible, forced players back from the table. Away from the table, when you hit, the ball will land on it easily; but close to the table, you have to bring the ball down actively. That is the difference.
Penholders are able to produce topspin with a flick of the wrist while hitting through the ball at the same time. This works even with less spinny pips like the Friendship 802, but still better with spinny pips like Globe 889 or DHS 652 (or Friendship 802 or 802-1 on a softer or thicker sponge!). Adding spin will also bring the return up, to a point where you no longer have to hit with topspin yourself - high bouncing balls can be hit flat, and the resulting almost no-spin ball will be the more difficult to return for an opponent who has got used to (slightly) spinny balls.
Shakehanders have a harder time with this. They definitely need spinny pips, for a start. They need thicker sponges. They also need to close their blades a bit more. Their stroke is similar to a normal counter-drive with inverted rubber. Especially over the table this is pretty difficult to do; although it is easier with the backhand, which is more flexible. This is why you will see a comparatively large number of (female) players with pips on their backhand, but no more two-winged pips-out players of world-class. Still, it is possible, especially with modern equipment, to play the game that Geng Lijuan and Johnny Huang once displayed.
I am sure I will never in the least be able to get to the level of those two formidable players. But the challenge is still there. So I have adjusted my equipment. I will play with 802 in 2.2 mm on my shakehand outfit. If anything worthwhile turns up because of this, I will post it. Any other pips-out players out there I'd like to ask to do the same.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 03:30 
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Hi Kees,
Excellent. That is just what I found with 802-40.
With OX pips, things change. I don't try to make spin with no sponge, just hit through. I only mention this as there are some people trying SP for the first time and thought I could save them some effort learning depending on which they choose, sponge or OX. :D

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 07:56 
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do you loop the ball at the top of the bounce or when its falling?

should we block with topspin as well?


Last edited by poor_newb on 13 Oct 2008, 09:40, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 08:11 
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Interesting. I'll try it out. Thick, you say? :D

I'll probably get some really slow blade to tune the speed of the sponge...

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Last edited by Yuzuki on 13 Oct 2008, 09:57, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 09:06 
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Shakehanders have a harder time with this. They definitely need spinny pips, for a start. They need thicker sponges. They also need to close their blades a bit more.

This is very very true. I recommend max sponges for shakehanders using pips on their backhand.

A woman I played with today, named Judy Long, a Canadian national team member who plays SH with pips on both sides uses max sponges also, with very disturbing results.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 16:37 
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Poornewb wrote:
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do you loop the ball at the top of the bounce or when its falling? should we block with topspin as well?

You don't actually loop, not the way as you would with inverted; you add topspin to your drive or smash, that's something different.
You still take the ball on or before the top of the bounce.
Blocking actively you may add topspin as well, but blocking with pips needs to be varied, so you will block with no-spin or backspin also.
Maybe to clear things up: playing with spinny pips is defenitely in no way a kind of transition to play with inverted! It remains pips play.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2008, 16:45 
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Baal wrote:
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A woman I played with today, named Judy Long, a Canadian national team member who plays SH with pips on both sides uses max sponges also, with very disturbing results.

That's interesting to know. They must have expertise in that team, since both Geng Lijuan and Johnny Huang used to play for Canada. Huang went from 1.9 mm in the 1990's to 2.1 mm eventually. My guess is that this was because of the new 40 mm ball and the new faster, spinnier equipment he had to confront. I think his flips got spinnier too, resembling more the classic pips-out penholder flips.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 00:38 
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You still take the ball on or before the top of the bounce.

This is crucial. Sometimes you might be able to get away with hitting just past the top of the bounce, but only a very little bit. This is very different from inverted!

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 00:55 
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The other main difference is to start your stroke just a "little" lower than the ball. Go into the ball. Think drive, not brush. Trying to use a loop stroke is about like trying to use a cheap, no spin premade. If you can't break away from the inverted strokes, pips will not work.
At lower levels, twiddling and doing a super loop with 802-40 will usually get put in the net. Won't work against players that understand. :D

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 02:42 
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Kees,

Are you suggesting that I go back to using my spinnier Clippa?

I have 2.1 mm Spectol 21 now (switched from 2.0 mm Clippa).

I still am adjusting to the Spectol which I observed has surprisingly excellent control.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 09:36 
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I would suggest instead that you pick one of the pips and stick with it for awhile and really refine your technique. Clippa and Raystorm are spinnier than Spectol, but all three are good rubbers that are used by top players, and they are not THAT different.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 18:09 
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Kees,

You are quite right about shakehanders. I have the same problems with the spin and control. I started to play with SP from inverted rubber. It was Sriver FX. My first SP was DHS 651 - very hard to control fo me. Next I tried the Clippa 1.8. This was more better, but still far from ideal feel. At the moment I play with Frienship 802-40 2.0 (#35 sponge) and apply glass gluing fot it. In this combination I have better control, spin and speed. Next step for me is increasing the sponge thickness to 2.2 mm.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 23:07 
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Chornyi

When you go thicker, give it some time (at least a week). The first day it will feel too fast, by the end of the first week, you will be much more consistent with blocking and attacking, but pushing and short game will feel pretty much the same. It really makes a difference and you will like it better with the thicker sponge.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 03:46 
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Baal wrote:
Quote:
When you go thicker, give it some time (at least a week).

I agree. A week may be too short a time even. When you go thicker, you gain spin and speed. Your stroke should be a little bit more upward to really make that more spin, because you will make more speed and need to get the ball down on the table. But it should also remain a short, fierce stroke, reallu through the ball. You can put more body in it.
Maybe you should refrain from glueing, with 2.2. Just try it out with one layer, enought to attach the rubber but not enough to make a dome. The sponge of the 802-40 is sensitive as it is, it doesn't need much of a boost in my opinion, and this way you get far more control. Control is important with pips, as you have no margins (like with inverted). I guess that is why you did away with the 651 and the Clippa, rubbers with less control (around 70) compared to the 802-40 (around 85).

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 15:10 
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Kees and Baal,

Thank you guys for your greate recommendations. Kees, yesterday after glass gluing I've so much my own no forced mistakes, that I guess you right again. The sponge of the 802-40 is very sensitive to glue. I have not control. But speed and spin was great! 8) So, I will to seek for compromise between the speed and control. Maybe, the sponge 2.2 is an answer of my question. Without speed glueing, certainly.

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