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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2016, 16:08 
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j2sip wrote:
I really like the 802 2.0mm for backhand but I'm planning to go 2.2mm next month. Will there be a SIGNIFICANT difference in speed, and specially control?


No.

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How about the 802-40 for FH?


Not spin-insensitive, but a cracking rubber if you want to generate spin.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2016, 18:42 
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I agree with the above post. Still, as for the question about the difference with 802 in 2.2 mm, it depends on the type of sponge. The difference is very small with the classic orange sponge, but with the modern soft yellow sponge, there is some loss in control. I would not advise 2.2 mm on your backhand anyway. With SP, max thickness makes sense only if you want increased spin potential. And instead of going for a thicker sponge, it often makes more sense to go for a spinnier pip.
As an alternative to the 802-40, which is much more spin-sensitive than the 802, you could try a 802-1 in 2.2 mm for the forehand. It is faster than the classic version of the 802 and easier to generate more spin with, whereas it still is almost as insensitive to incoming spin. It also blocks and hits great.

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PostPosted: 23 Nov 2016, 19:35 
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Kees wrote:
As an alternative to the 802-40, which is much more spin-sensitive than the 802, you could try a 802-1 in 2.2 mm for the forehand. It is faster than the classic version of the 802 and easier to generate more spin with, whereas it still is almost as insensitive to incoming spin. It also blocks and hits great.


I played someone using this on Sunday. Last time I played him he was using Dr Evil. This time he used 802-1, and was (even) more effective. The rubber behaved exactly as Kees just described. Excellent blocking and hitting but also capable of loading up spin on chops and serves.


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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 12:43 
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Thank you for the reply.

I will try 802-1 and if the speed and control advantage weighs in more than the sink/deception of the 563-1, I'll switch to it. If not, I will also try the 563 in 2.0mm thickness. I'm a low level EJ haha. I could have bought nice Euro/jap pips with the cash I spent on numerous Chinese rubbers; but then again, I may not like euro/japanese pips.

Is the 802-1 spinnier when chopping than the 563-1?

The sponge of the 802 that I have in the backhand is the orange one and the 802-1 in the shop is the HRS sponge. Is HRS better than the orange sponge?

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 12:46 
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So, I guess this could be a fine place to ask this question...(I don't mean to butt in on the current questioning!)

If one was considering trying short pips on the FH (coming off of inverted), and they still wanted some opening loop capacity, would a blade like acoustic, with a little flex/softness, be ok? I know that, in general, a stiff blade is preferred, but if I'm not aiming at purely classic SP game, can I get away with some flex? I would still be focusing on driving and blocking over looping.

Besides, all the super stuff/hard blades look like they are rated too fast for me at this point!

Thanks in advance for any replies :)

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 13:31 
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The Avalox BT550 is a flexible 5ply blade and I can say it does not have the crisp feeling that I think is needed for SP. Needless to say, I struggled to impart enough speed on hits. Even my adidas hypertouch carbon 7 ply can't give the "right" kind of feeling for SP play.

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 16:46 
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j2sip wrote:
I could have bought nice Euro/jap pips with the cash I spent on numerous Chinese rubbers; but then again, I may not like euro/japanese pips.

Is the 802-1 spinnier when chopping than the 563-1?

The sponge of the 802 that I have in the backhand is the orange one and the 802-1 in the shop is the HRS sponge. Is HRS better than the orange sponge?


Europese SPs are different from Chinese SPs. Most European players find the Euro pips play easier, as they seem to offer more grip on the ball.

The 802-1 allows for better spin production as the 563-1, depending on your stroke...

The HRS sponge is more elastic than the orange sponge, resulting in better grip and speed.

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 16:54 
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THE GAMEr wrote:
So, I guess this could be a fine place to ask this question...(I don't mean to butt in on the current questioning!)

If one was considering trying short pips on the FH (coming off of inverted), and they still wanted some opening loop capacity, would a blade like acoustic, with a little flex/softness, be ok? I know that, in general, a stiff blade is preferred, but if I'm not aiming at purely classic SP game, can I get away with some flex? I would still be focusing on driving and blocking over looping.

Besides, all the super stuff/hard blades look like they are rated too fast for me at this point!

Thanks in advance for any replies :)


Generally, with the plastic ball, blades for SP can be less rigid. Nor do they have to be 7ply. Some of the best suited blades are 5ply ALL+ blades by Joola and Stiga. As for the question of speed, you do not need a very fast blade for an allround type SP play. Hitting with pips results in a flat trajectory, which is significantly shorter than the curved trajectory of loops; so if you use an SP rubber with the same basic speed as an inverted rubber on the same blade, your play with the SP rubber will be faster - provided you hit with it.

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 17:56 
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Kees wrote:
j2sip wrote:
I could have bought nice Euro/jap pips with the cash I spent on numerous Chinese rubbers; but then again, I may not like euro/japanese pips.

Is the 802-1 spinnier when chopping than the 563-1?

The sponge of the 802 that I have in the backhand is the orange one and the 802-1 in the shop is the HRS sponge. Is HRS better than the orange sponge?


Europese SPs are different from Chinese SPs. Most European players find the Euro pips play easier, as they seem to offer more grip on the ball.

The 802-1 allows for better spin production as the 563-1, depending on your stroke...

The HRS sponge is more elastic than the orange sponge, resulting in better grip and speed.


Yasaka pips are the only non chinese SP that I have tried. So, instead of 563-1 in 2.0mm, the 802-1 2.2mm for me then. The 802's bounce when receiving topspin serve is noticeably higher than the 563-1 that I almost have to close the bat 45degrees. Is this the correct angle to actively block with it (and also using the 802-1)?
On to the spinning topic ... It seems I really got the hang of doing spinny return on the 802 on my backhand but when I switch 802 to the FH, it is a bit hard and often inconsistent. I maybe starting my stroke too high that I'm just hitting the ball instead of putting spin on it (thereby netting the ball). Watching J. Huang, his stroke starts lower and swings with an extended follow thru. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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PostPosted: 24 Nov 2016, 19:38 
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The angle of the bat when blocking topspin depends on the amount of spin on the ball. More incoming spin means closing the bat more; this is true with any type of rubber, except frictionless anti. In practice, though, the amount of incoming topspin will, on your level of play, not vary very much; if you have found a blocking angle that works - and you have to find it again with every rubber - it is best to keep using that angle.
If for some reason you find it hard to arrive at the correct angle, use some wrist-action when blocking. A little but quick flick of the wrist (not towards the ball, but grazing it, upwards) will take care of most of the incoming topspin, which makes the angle of the bat less critical.

As for spinning with SP, this is a technique that you shouldn't use until your drive (and hit) is nearly perfect. Driving through the ball is the most efficient way of using SP; putting spin on the ball is a variation that should be used sparingly - except of course against incoming backspin. It is essential for efficient SP play to contact the ball consistently quite early, that is, as soon as possible after the bounce - as a rule, when the ball approaches net-height while coming up. When you often use a stroke with which you produce topspin, the contact-point is much less critical and as a consequence you will lose the consistency that is required for good driving. This consistency must be part of your play; otherwise, playing with SP makes little sense.
As soon as your drive is really good and your consistency in contacting the ball is high, though, you can practice putting topspin on the ball by making your driving stroke longer (the key is starting lower; a longer follow-through, however, brings nothing), going slightly more upwards than forwards, and opening your bat a bit (as compared to the angle used with driving). It is best to practice this in such a way that your stroke gradually gets longer and as gradually produces more spin; that way you will get the right feel for it. But keep in mind that players like Huang had to play against much more topspin than you will ever have to deal with; countering that high amount of topspin requires an SP stroke that is different from the common drive. You will likely never really need a topspin stroke. It is fun to be capable of doing it, though.
"Looping" with SP using your forehand is more difficult than putting on topspin with your backhand. The backhand naturally allows the necessary wrist-action; with the forehand, when using a shakehand grip, this wrist-action is somewhat awkward. Instead, most shakehand players use underarm-action, bending the arm at the elbow. This works, but only if your arm is nearly straight when you begin your stroke, and then bend (crook) it fast. All in all, this movement is much longer and therefore much more time-consuming than a drive. You are losing time with it, and SP play is all about gaining time, so in a sense looping strokes are counterproductive for SP play.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2016, 11:10 
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Thank you for that detailed explanation, as always.

Quote:
You will likely never really need a topspin stroke. It is fun to be capable of doing it, though.

This is so true! Blocking, hitting and driving are plenty enough strokes for the SP game. Pushes I keep at minimum(only when my opponent does it first). I'll practice my hitting and driving before thinking about spinning.
I played again last night. My observation - Blocking a fast return (from a drive I did) is more effective than driving it again. I can do a wicked chop FH and BH now (at least at my level) that I often get asked how I do it. :rofl: I just tell them don't use the sponge :lol:

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2016, 16:00 
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Kees wrote:
As for spinning with SP, this is a technique that you shouldn't use until your drive (and hit) is nearly perfect. Driving through the ball is the most efficient way of using SP; putting spin on the ball is a variation that should be used sparingly - except of course against incoming backspin. It is essential for efficient SP play to contact the ball consistently quite early, that is, as soon as possible after the bounce - as a rule, when the ball approaches net-height while coming up. When you often use a stroke with which you produce topspin, the contact-point is much less critical and as a consequence you will lose the consistency that is required for good driving. This consistency must be part of your play; otherwise, playing with SP makes little sense.


This is golden.

If you don't do this (and sometimes I get lazy and start to play like an inverted) all you get is, as my coach says, inverted play with a shit rubber, and a built-in weakness away from the table.

This is something that I'm struggling to work with, because it's difficult. You really need to commit to taking the ball on the rise, and not get sucked into waiting or trying to spin the ball back.

I'm actually wondering if, for this purpose, it's best to learn SP hitting with a classical Chinese hitting pip like 802 or 651, with fairly hard and not too thick sponge. I moved from 651 to Degu recently, and because it plays more like inverted (much spinner, much softer), I've found that inverted-like strokes and gentle rolls, and trying to spin the ball have started to creep into my game.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2016, 16:52 
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I just ordered the 802-1 2.2mm. A little spin isn't bad in situations like out of reach balls and the opposite - balls that goes right to the body. Normally for me, the latter should be blocked BH but sometimes I just lean to the left and give the ball a "chicken wing" stroke (arm can't be extended). Hitting stroke would hit the net but a little upward stroke will be fine.

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PostPosted: 25 Nov 2016, 18:02 
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LordCope wrote:
If you don't do this (and sometimes I get lazy and start to play like an inverted) all you get is, as my coach says, inverted play with a shit rubber, and a built-in weakness away from the table.

This is something that I'm struggling to work with, because it's difficult. You really need to commit to taking the ball on the rise, and not get sucked into waiting or trying to spin the ball back.

I'm actually wondering if, for this purpose, it's best to learn SP hitting with a classical Chinese hitting pip like 802 or 651, with fairly hard and not too thick sponge. I moved from 651 to Degu recently, and because it plays more like inverted (much spinner, much softer), I've found that inverted-like strokes and gentle rolls, and trying to spin the ball have started to creep into my game.


Three points, all quite true. Chinese training for SP focuses on taking the ball on the rise, every time at the same height, on the quick footwork that is needed for this, and on anticipation (learning effective patterns of placement). That kind of training can get really monotonous, which makes it hard. But it is worth it, for when you have mastered it, you suddenly are able to play at a really high level. Anticipation - knowing where to expect the return of the opponent - is a key factor and in the long run probably even slightly more important than quick footwork. You can see this in a player like He Zhiwen, who at his age still plays incredibly well. In his fifties now, he cannot possibly be as fast as he was, but because he anticipates so well, his manages to play at the highest level. Experience pays off, of course, but it is really about understanding how to put the opponent under pressure with your pips, and leave him only one option for his return. Every time I watch He playing, I am hugely impressed - he makes it look so simple and effortless, especially the points he wins by his backhand blocks. But it takes great skill and insight to move your opponent around the way he does.

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