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Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.
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Author:  Baal [ 07 Apr 2009, 06:13 ]
Post subject: 

P700 is great. However, be aware that if you are a shakehand player and use inverted on teh forehand, it will change the feel a lot. You gotta think about both sides! My blade is not suited really for SP either, but it feels really good on my inverted side.

Author:  Yuzuki [ 07 Apr 2009, 08:25 ]
Post subject: 

Yeah, found that out myself -- this Chinese inverted I'm been using is easy to control on the P500, yet I have a hard time getting dwell using the same on the P700.

--

On a side note, I think I might need to give this topic a serious look as I think I need to work on this for linking and consistency. :?

Author:  bbkon [ 17 May 2009, 04:40 ]
Post subject:  Re:

Baal wrote:
I would suggest instead that you pick one of the pips and stick with it for awhile and really refine your technique. Clippa and Raystorm are spinnier than Spectol, but all three are good rubbers that are used by top players, and they are not THAT different.


Is there any top player using raystorm?

Author:  agooding2 [ 17 May 2009, 23:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

bbkon wrote:
Baal wrote:
I would suggest instead that you pick one of the pips and stick with it for awhile and really refine your technique. Clippa and Raystorm are spinnier than Spectol, but all three are good rubbers that are used by top players, and they are not THAT different.


Is there any top player using raystorm?


Some of the Butterfly sponsored players use it, but Spectol seems more popular.

There was a Junior left handed penhold RPB player who used Raystorm from Japan, but I haven't seen his names in the results for awhile.

Author:  amateur101 [ 18 May 2009, 13:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

Since this thread is about spinning with SP, I am raising the issue of whether it is still feasible to use less spinny pips on both sides.

I have been a fan of the less spinny Spectol for the past few months but lack of spin of my FH shots have made my returns often hit too long or into the net. The limited ability to spin seemed to limit also the range of strokes possible.

But when those shots come through, you can be sure that those balls are so tough to handle.

I have been tempted lately to try more spinny pips such as the 802-40 on FH but retaining Spectol on BH. This may also provide more variation in my returns.

I also noticed that there is hardly a pro these days that still play with less spinny pips on both sides. (I might be mistaken.)

Has the day of the pure less-spinny SP shakehand player finally come to an end?

The only thing that has kept me going is that my all Spectol setup is so rare and unique.
Most all pips players I meet usually use medium pips on the other side.

Author:  hookshot [ 18 May 2009, 14:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

I tried 802-40 for a while and liked it. I have seen others fail as it is grippy enough that they kept using their inverted strokes. This defeated the benifits. While you can loop with it, it causes more trouble when you use it like a short pip and hit with it. I think it would give more options than short pips as you can vary the spin more by using different strokes. :D

Author:  amateur101 [ 18 May 2009, 15:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

hookshot wrote:
I tried 802-40 for a while and liked it. I have seen others fail as it is grippy enough that they kept using their inverted strokes. This defeated the benifits. While you can loop with it, it causes more trouble when you use it like a short pip and hit with it. I think it would give more options than short pips as you can vary the spin more by using different strokes. :D


You may have a valid point here.

I tried 802-40 on a lark 3 months ago but could not seem to make significant progress. I probably was seeking an opening to loop instead of focusing on hitting more and using "loop-like" strokes as a variation.

I used 802-40 on FH yesterday and according to my opponent the ball was a bit more consistent and faster probably because I could add a more topspin. The downside is that those balls were not really as tricky to handle but I think this can be remedied by practicing varying my strokes.

Author:  Yuzuki [ 18 May 2009, 16:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

amateur101 wrote:
I used 802-40 on FH yesterday and according to my opponent the ball was a bit more consistent and faster probably because I could add a more topspin. The downside is that those balls were not really as tricky to handle but I think this can be remedied by practicing varying my strokes.


Well, the balls might not be tricky to handle, but consistency, pace, and ease of using 'shorter' angles might be a good compromise.

You can always flip the bat if you need a flat hit since you have Spectol on the back.

Author:  hookshot [ 18 May 2009, 16:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

Where the 802-40 shined was hitting at the top of the bounce with little effort to make top spin. Just hit with very little up, mostly forwards. It is surprizing how low an incomming backspin ball you can hit this way. If there is backspin, I just opened the bat more and still used the same stroke for hitting a topspin.
While you can loop with it, it just gives an easy ball to them. Better to use inverted. One thing that surprized me is how good a serve I could make with it. :D

Author:  Kees [ 18 May 2009, 16:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

amateur 101 wrote:
Quote:
I have been a fan of the less spinny Spectol for the past few months but lack of spin of my FH shots have made my returns often hit too long or into the net.

It probably is not lack of spin that made you hit long. A ball that goes long is mostly going too flat. This may be caused by:
1. too much forward motion of the arm, e.g. when you use your whole arm (instead of only your underarm) when you drive or hit or smash a ball over or closely behind the table. Watch your arm when you are training; if after you made a stroke (especially a fast or powerful one) your upper-arm is pointing forward when at the same time it is making an angle of about 90 degrees with your torso, you have used your upper-arm. Remedy: try and keep your elbow closer to your body all the time and do not really lift it. The stroke should feel as coming from your under-arm only and your upper-arm and shoulder should be relaxed. Only when you drive or smash from more than about a meter away, you can start using your upper-arm, because at that distance the ball will drop (gravity) even when hit powerfully forward. If you want to exert more power close to or over the table, use the rotation of your torso instead of your whole arm.
2. bad timing. When you contact the ball too late (on the top with less spinny balls, after the top with spinny balls) you will compensate without thinking and lift it a little, by opening your blade, or following through upwards, or applying topspin with the wrist. The result will be a flat trajectory that makes the ball stay about as high as when you made contact with it. Watch the ball and the bat when training and see if your timing tends to be off. Especially against slow balls and against fast low balls this may be the case. Remedy: take each and every ball on the same height, about net-high, on the rise - estimate the trajectory of the incoming ball when it is over your opponent's halve of the table and do not hesitate or wait but start your stroke when the ball leaves the table and not later.
3. faulty blade-angle. It is pretty difficult to be sure whether you are actually hitting through the ball or making a half-loop; against fast balls with decent topspin you have to close your bat a bit (against heavy spin quite a bit) in order to make contact with the back of the ball and this closed angle may make you instinctively perform a more or less brushing stroke. Especially players who have been loopers and have been used to loop with a curve (starting with the bat slightly closed and closing it more while swinging up) may do this unconsciously. Watch your arm and hand when you are training and see if you close your bat when driving. Remedy: practice hitting, driving, smashing while keeping your wrist out of it; your wrist should not rotate.
4. eagerness! A lot of SP players tend to think that it should be possible to flat-hit through any incoming ball whatsoever. This is a mistake. Low balls, short balls, balls with decent backspin cannot be smashed; you have to return them fast and precise and without the intention to win the point. This is very important. When playing with SP you have to set up your kill patiently and skillfully, even though "patiently" may just mean driving one single well-placed ball. When you watch videos of matches from 2000 or before, you have to realize that SP players like Liu Guoliang, Wang Tao, Jiang Jialiang, and so on, attack a 38 mm ball which tends to be faster and can be still on the rise when already several feet away from the table. The 40 mm ball will definitely be dropping at that point. "Modern" pips out play is different because of that. When you watch Johnny Huang or He Zhi Wen in matches after 2000, you will notice that blocking over and closely behind the table has become a much more important element of the style. Watching female players can be misleading too, because they will mostly punch-block (backhand stroke) over and closely behind the table; this looks like a fast drive, but is an active block, and should be compared to a man's flick - male players can't build their attacking game around this stroke.

Quote:
I also noticed that there is hardly a pro these days that still play with less spinny pips on both sides. (I might be mistaken.)


The differences in topspin producing capacity between spinny pips like 802-40 and less spinny pips like regular 802 are exaggerated, in my opinion. 802 on a thick softened sponge will produce at least as much topspin as 802-40. Modern pips are combined with fast, dynamic, therefore soft sponges, which tend to make the contact or dwelling time so short that ordinary short pips topsheets would get qualities of a medium or even long pip; to prevent this, topsheets are made more grippy; but the overall result is not a big difference in the capacity to produce topspin - modern pips generally do what classic pips did, only with more forward speed and (mostly) somewhat less control. Most pro's play with modern equipment they get from their sponsors, so they use modern pips, which may suit them because of the increase in speed, but you will not see them loop with short pips. They will have to train hard to overcome the problems these rubbers pose with blocking, since they are more sensitive to incoming spin. And some players will just stick to using classic equipment, like He Zhi Wen, because it is just about perfect for the job - especially with the men, blocking has become more important in modern play and classic rubbers block best.

When you develop as a pips out player, there will be times you seem to stand still instead of go forward, and you will seem to have problems with players you should be able to beat. This is normal. Development means moving on in stages or jumps; the jumps occur when the new skills you have mastered join and make a new whole; but in between these jumps you will have to learn to apply your new skills and use the new whole, so you will find out its limitations and ways to go beyond them again, and make a new jump. Changing equipment, though tempting, is generally not a good idea in between jumps because of this: you have to learn to use the old equipment in new ways. If you'd change equipment, you'd have to start all over again with it, so it wouldn't bring the gain you were hoping for. As a rule it is better to focus on your style and find out your limitations, then start working on overcoming them with the equipment you have. After all, it's not the equipment that is making your mistakes. You must find the conviction and trust that you will develop as long as you put your back into it.

Author:  amateur101 [ 19 May 2009, 05:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

Kees, that is an interesting point you have raised. Perhaps this is more of an issue of technique rather than the kind of short pips used - whether spinny or otherwise.

Author:  amateur101 [ 19 May 2009, 10:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

Kees,

Why do you use 802-1? Why not 802?

Author:  Kees [ 19 May 2009, 15:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

amateur 101 wrote:
Quote:
Kees, Why do you use 802-1? Why not 802?


Regular 802 is a bit faster, slightly spinnier (which makes it also slightly more sensitive to incoming spin), and has a bit less control than 802-1, which is OK for an all-out attack rubber, but perhaps makes it (especially on thicker sponge) less well suited for the allround game I play. It isn't that I think 802-1 is much better, though. I have played with 802 in 1.5 and 1.8 mm and I liked it fine; I've also played with DHS 651 and XuShaoFa 889 (2.0 mm) and those are also quite alright. But I prefer a rubber with lots of control and 802-1 offers more of that than the other rubbers.

Author:  amateur101 [ 20 May 2009, 02:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

Kees wrote:
Regular 802 is a bit faster, slightly spinnier (which makes it also slightly more sensitive to incoming spin), and has a bit less control than 802-1, which is OK for an all-out attack rubber, but perhaps makes it (especially on thicker sponge) less well suited for the allround game I play. It isn't that I think 802-1 is much better, though. I have played with 802 in 1.5 and 1.8 mm and I liked it fine; I've also played with DHS 651 and XuShaoFa 889 (2.0 mm) and those are also quite alright. But I prefer a rubber with lots of control and 802-1 offers more of that than the other rubbers.


I have good reviews too of the 802-1 with respect to control. It feels very crisp and is great for blocking.

The black 802-1 I use did not seem less spinny than 802. It actually felt spinnier than Spectol or 802 and I could spin/lift balls that have already dropped low. Perhaps its merely a result of the better control.

Author:  agooding2 [ 20 May 2009, 02:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Spinning with short pips - the reason why, the way how.

amateur101 wrote:
I have good reviews too of the 802-1 with respect to control. It feels very crisp and is great for blocking.

The black 802-1 I use did not seem less spinny than 802. It actually felt spinnier than Spectol or 802 and I could spin/lift balls that have already dropped low. Perhaps its merely a result of the better control.


I also thought that the black 802-1 was spinnier and easier to control than the red 802 I tried, while the 802 was faster. I'll need to try the latter again if I can't find a good source for thin sponge 651.

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