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PostPosted: 09 Jun 2007, 00:10 
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I've been debating whethr I should try a less spiny short pimple. Right now I use Joola Tango Ultra (basically a softer, tensor version of 802-40 or 889-2) which works very well but is so spinny that it does allow me to "get away" with strokes I used with inverted.

Alex is sending me a sheet of Galaxy Pluto in 1.3 mm sponge as well as a sheet of Galaxy Uranus in 2.0 to try out and report back on. I also have sheets of regular 802, 799 and regular 889 I could try.

Any thoughts on what I'll need to do to make the transition? I assume that techniques for using less spinny short pips are a little bit closer to what you would do with grippy long pimples than they are to inverted.

I've got a few sheets of medium and long pimples (C7, 755 Faster, 955) that I use to help others learn to play with those surfaces but my play with those is of a pretty poor standard. I can play a little bit with OX short pips (Yasaka Cobalt) and it does help my roll and patience.

Right now my style is similar to what it was with inverted. I serve mostly short, loop the pushed return and then look to smash to finish the point. I tend to use a long loop stroke more than I should and need to work more on a compact roll. I also don't block as much or as well as I probably should. Any help would be appreciated.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2007, 17:03 
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It depends in part on whether you play penhold or shakehand, I think. In any case the basic stroke with less spinny pips out is not a loop, but a short, quick diagonal upward and forward flick of the underarm, pivoting around the elbow (not the shoulder); in fact it resembles the active block you would do with inverted, but with more follow-through. The underarm moves from about 150 degrees (with the upperarm) to about 90 or 80. You have to keep your elbow loose, but more closely to your side than you may be used to, because you must avoid using the upper-arm and the shoulder. It will feel strange initially, like you're doing something like a half-stroke, or like you're being passive. But actually what you are doing is making your stroke very fast and accurate, doing away with all unnecessary motions. Keep in mind that you can't really catch the ball in your rubber and guide it, as you'ld do with inverted or spinny pips; instead you must hit it or block it, that is, have it just sort of bounce off your bat in the right direction. So there is no sense in "winding back" in order to match the trajectory of the incoming ball; you simply get behind the ball and snap your underarm.
There are one or two videoclips of Johnny Huang on YouTube which would give the right idea.

Maybe more important is the change in timing. With less spinny pips you do have to hit the ball off the bounce. Incoming topspin balls you can hit just before the top of the bounce, incoming backspin is best hit well before that point, because you need the upward motion (rise) of the ball to get it over the net, since you cannot catch it in your rubber. Do not brush the ball, but hit it solidly; the blade of the bat should be at about rectangles with the trajectory of the ball, and so should be the movement of your underarm; if your timing is OK this standard diagonal stroke will land the ball on the table.
This involves a change in attitude. You have to move fast toward the ball to be in time, you can't wait for it while getting ready to spin.
If you are too late to hit the ball off the bounce, you have to use a different stroke: a small topspin stroke. Essentially this means your stroke is more upward (in order to make a more brushing contact) and you use the snap of your wrist to produce much more friction between the ball and your rubber. Even so, keep the stroke pretty short. You can see Gao Jun do this often when she is picking up backspin balls just behind the table. On http://lucioping.altervista.org/Filmati.htm you will find some videotaped matches of Gao you can download.

Finally, you can't use as much power with your stroke as you are used to. Topspin brings the ball down on the table; with less spinny pips you can't produce enough topspin to bring down balls which you have hit with real power.
However, you can use the spin on the incoming ball. An incoming heavy topspin ball will bounce off your rubber going up, so you can hit or smash it pretty hard even if it is a low ball (not higher than the net). An incoming heavy backspin ball you can flip, just brushing it quickly so it makes very light contact; the result will be that backspin is reversed in topspin, so you can make the flip pretty powerful.
Of course a lot depends on the characteristics of your rubber.

The best less spinny rubber for an allround pips out hitting game is, to my mind, the Friendship 799 in 1.5 mm. It is not too hard, not too fast and offers outstanding control with more than enough speed. It is capable of putting spin on the ball; serves can be made very spinny when you use your wrist.
The Friendship 802-1 in 1.5 mm would be my next choice; it is a bit more spinny, and faster.
The Friendship 802 in 1.5 or 2.0 mm is definitely the best short pip for a real tough hitting game, but it is so fast that you have to be very accomplished (which I'm not) to use it well.

I hope this will help. Good luck!

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2007, 19:22 
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I forgot to mention the change in tactics which may be needed when playing with less spinny SP. I myself favor classic chinese tactics (which still do very well for He Zhi Wen, who is playing succesfully for Club Caja Granada and is perfectly capable of holding his own against e.g. Timo Boll). It is simple and quite effective. The main rule is that speed is always superior to spin. A player can counter any type of spin if he has the skill, but he can't return a ball he is too late to reach or hit properly. So with SP you have to return the ball as fast as possible (over the table play) and out of (easy) reach for your opponent, either cutting the side-lines or hitting the ball deep aiming for the point where a shakehander has to turn form forehand to backhand. Against a penholder you try and make him move from left to right. The initial line of attack is always "fast down the middle", that is to the turning point of the shakehander (or deep at the backhand of the penholder; unless he plays a reverse penhold backhand, then he is like a shakehander). As the opponent is forced to move sideways, attack the same point again, to force him further in the same direction. If he is far enough out of position, then cut the sideline. Use primarily your backhand to attack down the middle; make the kill with the forehand.
This is basic stuff, I know, but it is basic because it works. If you watch Gao Jun, a controlled attacker, you'll see how often she returns down the middle. Down the middle is short and fast, even if you do not hit with power (which she doesn't). Playing that one extra shot down the middle will allow you to make the kill with much more certainty.
However, even this basic stuff only works as long as you keep the initiative. What to do when you lose it? How to gain/regain the initiative? The only thing you need is buy time. Block and/or flip the incoming balls short over the net, as short as possible; use stop-blocks or pull-back blocks, or fast topspin blocks/flips, anything that will keep the ball very low and close to the net so it can't be easily attacked. Attack the return with a deep ball "down the middle" and you're all set to start again.
Keep up the pressure. Do not break off your attack too early. Find out just how low a ball you can hit over the net; with pips like the 799 and 802 you can smash pretty low topspin balls (centimeters below net-height) and return them in fact a lot faster than when you loop with the 802-40. Keep in mind also that you do not generate a lot of topspin, so your opponent will either spin into the net or be forced to use less topspin or less speed, which will make his balls bounce a bit higher; with SP you can put away any slightly high ball.
To keep up your attack, which you must, it is really necessary to block some balls. You have to keep pretty close to the table and try to hit in fact over the table; some balls will come too fast to you to hit, so you have to block them if you want to keep your position, and the initiative. Think of blocking as intelligent attack, not as defence. The 802 blocks with more speed than the 802-40, because it is less spinny, so blocking over the table with it can really help to keep the pressure on.

In general, I think a pips out hitter will be better off with less spinny material. Spinny pips give you the illusion that you can do more with the ball, stuff that you can do with inverted; as a result you tend to wait more for the ball, instead of going toward it. So you lose speed, which is the basic strength of short pips. That doesn't make sense, I think. The chocie should be either inverted or classic short pips with spinvalues below 7, preferably around 6 (on a scale to 10). That allows for good serving and fast play.


Good luck!

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2007, 22:59 
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Thanks, very helpful description. Makes a lot sense after I saw He Zhi Wen go 7 games against Kreanga, blocking and smashing to the middle, the corners, and down the line.

Joola Snabb seems better for blocking and opening than my old Joola Tango Ultra but at some point I'll try 799 and 802 again as I do think the less spinny pips have advantages for this traditional game.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2007, 23:15 
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I tried a good number of sheets on my twiddler and I found that regular 889 was the best of anything, much better than Friendship's, Juic's, Stiga's, or Galaxy's stuff (although Uranus was pretty nice). The pips are quite hard and the sponge has great spring, but because the tops of the pips are very grippy, you can create a lot of topspin while still using a purer SP stroke. You can still kinda loop with them, but the feeling of hits or fast topspin drives is much better and you'll quickly start doing it automatically when using them.

With something like Uranus, even though the topsheet has lower friction, you're still tempted to half loop with it, since the dwell time is longer and the sponge has more give before the ball rebounds as a result. Hits don't seem to have the same *CRACK* as 889 with Uranus or some similar stuff that I tried.

It's probably for the better that Globe 889 has a grippier topsheet anyways; even if you're not looping with it, it's important that you be aware of the spin on the ball. When I was using Uranus, I found that I'd frequently ignore the spin on the ball even though I was still moderately susceptible to it, which led to a lot of balls in the net and over the table. With 889, I had to pay attention to what was going on with the spin, and even though I didn't attack everything that I would've with Uranus, I still managed to win more points with it. That's not to say that 889 is a more passive pip, but just that unless you're playing with frictionless LP, you really should still try to be conscious of the spin. Plus, with a grippier topsheet, you can serve much more effectively.

I would also be aware that Uranus is probably getting banned in '08 while 889 will stay legal.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2007, 23:33 
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889 is a nice rubber for a hitting game, a bit faster than 799 with a higher throw than 802. I've got a sheet with a very soft sponge, and it works well on a Yasaka Max Wood.

Seems like a less expensive version of Stiga Royal, which I also have but as I like to open with my short pips I'm preferring Joola Snabb which has a firmer sponge. I'm working on the roll stroke described very nicely by Kees and that is making my opening a lot more reliable than before.

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2007, 12:11 
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Kees,

What you say makes perfect sense, and it is what my Chinese coaches have been telling me for awhile now. It requires really good footwork and I am not as young as I used to be :? I am wondering if using thinner sponge will achieve the same thing. Do you have any thoughts/experience about that?

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PostPosted: 24 Oct 2007, 21:19 
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Baal,

I am not sure if I have any new advice to offer, since you have Chinese coaches, but, yes, I believe thinner sponges (1.5 or even 1.3 mm) may be more effective with classic short pips play, because they are less spinny than 2.0 mm sponged SP's. Looping with them is simply much harder, hitting easier. Playing "small topspin" is still an option with thin rubbers, but Chen Long Can, maybe the best SP player ever, using a thin rubber, very seldomly used this technique. For spinning the ball will always mean loss of speed and speed is what you must rely on when playing with pips.
How to keep up the pace when you are getting older? Interesting question. I'm nearing 50 myself and facing the same problem. In fact, I became so convinced that slowing down would cause me problems that I changed from an attacking penhold style to a defensive shakehand style. Now I am in the process of converting again. For I find that, whereas your feet (and the rest of the body) may be slowing down, your hands will lose nothing of their dexterity. So you can still hit the ball well, if you only get your hand there in time. And anticipation will buy you the time you need to move in; time enough to hit the ball just right. If you're getting older, you're bound to be more experienced; your ability to anticipate will profit from that. It also helps if you keep things a bit more simple: in simple play anticipation is easier. So I decided to stick to simple tactics. I try to do this by playing the shakehand version of classic penhold play: patiently blocking with the backhand, hitting with the forehand. (I think all players, and certainly all ageing players, should read Sun Tzu's The Art of War: "Invincibility lies in defence, the possibility of victory in the attack." That is the balance that should be achieved: a steady defence to make possible fast attack ). I have come to realize that even when playing with a penhold grip this can be done without much need to move about behind the table: just stay behind the lefthand side (not quite behind the lefthand corner) of the table and block deep "down the middle" (keeping in mind that this means aiming at the elbow of the arm your opponent plays with, NOT the middle of the table) - it will be very difficult for your opponent to cut the sidelines with his returns, and if he tries to attack your forehand side, you can make the kill yourself. (Every time I watch Gao Jun play I am fascinated: she seems to move hardly at all, yet is almost always at the right time in the right place!) It pays off if you vary your blocks: topspin block, backspin block, combined with sidespin, fast punches, pullback blocks - in fact this variety is much easier achieved with penhold grip. Maybe I will in time go all the way back to my first love: single-sided pips out penhold...
So my advice, if needed at all, would be to do everything you can, as regards material and tactics, to keep play as simple and hence as controlable as possible.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: 24 Oct 2007, 22:56 
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Kees wrote:
Playing "small topspin" is still an option with thin rubbers, but Chen Long Can, maybe the best SP player ever, using a thin rubber, very seldomly used this technique. For spinning the ball will always mean loss of speed and speed is what you must rely on when playing with pips.


Very interesting. I've got a training CD-ROM of Chen and of Jiang Jialiang and I noticed that Jiang often drops his arm lower and takes the ball slightly later with a bit of wrist movement. I assume this is the "small topspin" stroke you were discussing.

Chen seems to almost always take the ball early, either while it is rising or at the top of the bounce and so has a more compact stroke. I thought the difference were due to their different body types, but I guess it's more due to the different techniques they are using.

Good to hear how you've adjusted with advancing age. I'm 40 and a few years ago went from a single-sided, forehand dominant Japanese/Korean style game to a Chinese style pips out hitting game with reverse penhold on the backhand and now have less reason to run around my backhand as I can block topspin attacks and loop long serves and pushes.

I've noticed that Chen Longcan is still coming to tournaments and playing in the U.S. even though he must be 50. He is the highest rated player and generally only loses to other internationals.

Here's some video of him playing against some players of a much lower standard, so he clearly isn't working very hard, but it does show he can still play at a high level: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=3

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2007, 00:18 
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Hey Andrew, that's a nice videoclip! Chen is taking his ease, I guess, not even bending his knees a bit, but even so he is varying his backhand returns very cunningly. Thanks!

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I'm happy to return the favor. Talk about playing relaxed! I'd like to see Chen against a better player, but it's impressive what good hands and spin variation can do. Gives us hope for our declining years. :lol:

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2007, 07:03 
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Well I tried the 1.9 mm Raystorm, down from the 2.1. I think I like it, my opening seemed more consistent, but it really isn't that different. That is probably a good thing, gradual changes are probably best. Time will tell.

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Next sheet you can try 1.7 if you want to. I went from 2.1-2.2 to 2.0 to 1.8.

I'm not yet ready to go to 1.5 but I may at some point.

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2007, 16:09 
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agooding2 wrote:
Very interesting. I've got a training CD-ROM of Chen and of Jiang Jialiang and I noticed that Jiang often drops his arm lower and takes the ball slightly later with a bit of wrist movement. I assume this is the "small topspin" stroke you were discussing.

Chen seems to almost always take the ball early, either while it is rising or at the top of the bounce and so has a more compact stroke. I thought the difference were due to their different body types, but I guess it's more due to the different techniques they are using.

-- Andrew



Hi Andrew !
Being a SP player myself I´m always interested in wachting other SP players train especially Chen Longcan. Is it possible to buy this CD-ROM somewhere ?
Regarding the sponge thickness I totally agree that anything over 1,8 mm works against you. It will be a little bit easier to perform inverted strokes, but you loose too much control in your blocking and hitting game. Whether you should play with more spinny pips or not also depends upon your style. I have been playing with less spinny pips for many years in my forehand, but I have now changed to more spinny pips. Just out of curiosity and because I like pips, I have now decided to try SP on both sides at the same time. Backhand will be 802 and forehand TSP superspin pips. Both sheets are 1,5 mm. With this sponge thickness I can both defend far from table, block and attack, thus giving me many options. The spinny pips in my forehand will help me to produce spinny serves and make opening shots easier. I didn´t find the transition to more spinny pips hard in my hitting game.

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2007, 17:29 
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Andrew wrote:
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Any thoughts on what I'll need to do to make the transition? I assume that techniques for using less spinny short pips are a little bit closer to what you would do with grippy long pimples than they are to inverted.

The main problem is, I guess, that with inverted or spinny pips you tend to close your bat before or on impact, and contact the ball somewhere between the topside and the backside (a "topspin reflex"), whereas with less spinny pips you have to keep your bat neutral (80-90 degrees) and contact the ball more or less at the centre of the backside. I have tried to think of a training routine that might help anyone who wants to go from inverted to classic short pips to get rid of this topspin reflex and establish a basic feeling for the "pips-stroke". Maybe the following one will help.

Have someone or something looping pretty flat topspin balls a bit wide at your forehand; they shouldn't bounce higher than the net. Now think of hitting with inverted against backspin, so open your bat, swing pretty hard right at the ball, make solid contact with the back-centre of the ball and at contact swing right up to lift the ball. So your bat moves forward, then up; the total trajectory will be the mirror image of a high loop, that is it will be a hollow curve.
The result will be that at the solid contact your pips will stop most of the spin on the incoming ball; what is left of the spin will help to lift the ball over the net; the upward motion of the bat will do the same; the forward motion will make it land far on the table.
Hit like this, the ball will have a very flat trajectory and be almost dead, skidding off the table. If your opponent blocks it expecting topspin, his return will go into the net; looping it will also be difficult. So it's a good basic offensive stroke.
But as a training stroke it needs to be exaggerated at first. Going flat forward first, then right upward, breaks down the desired motion of the bat in its two components, which makes it easier to build the correct (new) reflexes a hitter must have. If it goes well, blend these two components into one single forward/upward stroke; to succeed you must make both of the components shorter, so go short forward, short upward, until you go forward and upward at the same time. Watch your bat contacting the ball: keep your bat open all the time.
It is easiest to practice this swing at some distance of your body, because with your arm almost stretched the forward motion is more clearly distinguishable from the upward motion: you can see it better and feel it better. As soon as you have got it right, you can take the ball closer to your body, wich will make it easier to blend the two components into one stroke.
At that stage it is also easier to produce the forward motion mainly with your body (turning your torso very fast, but not very far, so that your shoulder moves forward) and the upward motion mainly with your (under-)arm. You can hit with more force and more accuracy this way, using the quick turn of your body (legs, torso, shoulder - in that order) to produce force and your up-going underarm to direct it. Keep the motion of your body really fast and short; it must never be even remotely similar to the way you would move when looping, that is not like winding back and coming up again; remember you cannot catch the ball in your rubber, and you do not have to match its trajectory as you would have to when looping - hitting is just hitting, fast and short.
The final stroke can be used to hit any incoming topspin or no-spin ball, even very flat and low bouncing ones. Incoming backspin balls must be lifted more.
The stroke is hard to perform with SP on sponge thicker than 1.5 mm, or SP on soft sponge. You will produce too much topspin, or the effect of the incoming ball on your rubber will be to great, or both. The stroke is also hard to perform with SP that is very fast or with a very fast blade, because you will hit over the table (too much forward speed; you would have to compensate for this by hitting more upward than forward). The equipment most suited to this basic stroke (and to basic pips out play) is 1.3 or 1.5 mm conventional SP (speed 8 to 9 on a scale to 10, spin somewhere around 6 to 7) on an allround frame. This equipment will play in fact very fast, because you will hit very flat balls with it. Spinny pips, like inverted, will curve the trajectory of the ball, making it slower.

If you watch Jian Jialiang or Chen Longcan or any other Chinese pips player, to learn of their example, you have to focus your attention on the first part of their swing, that is watch the bat going to the ball and making contact; because after that, during the follow-through, they will relax the arm and the bat will be closed as a result. So from that point on it may look like an ordinary looping stroke, while in fact it is quite different.

I hope this will help.

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