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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2011, 02:13 
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Algy, of course we can agree on your definition. We'd just have to distinguish it from "curve" and use a different term for zigzagging balls as well, then. How about "wabble" for the latter? Which according to Websters is to make a series of small irregular or violent movements, or to make a series of unsteady side-to-side motions. I believe this is what is meant by the German terms "flatter" and "eiern" which are in common use to describe the properties of the irregular and perplexing trajectories of balls coming from LP rubbers. If we want to stay close to that, we could use "flutter" and "egging" in English. I like the last one - visualize an egg trying to stay upright. Hallucination doesn't come into it, by the way. The point I wanted to make is that seeing something involves interpretation, and a wrong interpretation may lead to hesitation or an inadequate reaction; the idea is to avoid both, and hence be able to hit wobbling, fluttering or egging balls for a winner.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2011, 04:04 
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I am obliged to post here the discussion this thread originated in my home, with my sons (16 and 17). It went more or less like this:
"Dad , did you write this?"
'What? Oh, that. My name is under it, right?"
"Wrong. You were wrong. There is wobble in that video."
"No, there isn't."
"Yes, there is. Look..."
"OK. It went left to right."
"No, it went left to right and then straight."
"So it did. So it didn't went left again."
"Dad, it changed course."
"Not twice."
"Yes. Twice. When it went straight after going right."
"Going straight isn't changing course. It means the sidespin on the ball wore out and the effect disappeared. So it isn't wobble."
"Dad, that is a professor's..."
"I never was a professor, I told you that many times over!"
"You taught at university before you..."
"That is different from..."
"Dad, please. You are not treating this guy right. He pointed out what is real to any player. It has been real to us."
"Nonsense. You were never fooled by..."
"No, we weren't, because we had been training with you and you made us see..."
"What is real!"
"You know, dad, you're a pain. Why do you have to be right? All the time?"
"I do not! It is..."
"Yeah, yeah, it is. You should respect..."
"I do respect...!"
"Us?"
"I do."
"Them? At the forum?"
"Yes."
"You do? Then write it down, this, there. Tell 'em changing from a curve to a straight course is not changing course at all, but just running out of spin."
"Look, the two of you are..."
"Absurd? Dad..."
"Ok, then! Right! I'll do it!"
"Will they agree?"
"No."
"Can you blame them for that? Would you blame us? Yes, you would. But in all fairness...?"

I do love my kids. So I had to post this. If I have hurt anybody, I apologize. I try to go for the truth, and sometimes (yes, my sons say: quite often) I forget about the feelings of the people involved. But it doesn't mean I don't cherish or love them. I do.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2011, 10:49 
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Quite an interesting (and entertaining :lol: ) discussions, not unlike a forum thread really :lol:

It would be great if we could see the path of the ball from above, so that we can be sure when it's curving and when it's going straight, as it's too hard to judge from the back angle...

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2011, 10:01 
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In my limited experience against other long pips players, Pushblocker shots appear to have the most wobble.

Either real or imagined, it does easily fuddle my Pooh like brain.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2011, 10:12 
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wobble...zigzag...and wabble..I am wondering after the idea mentioned of seeing the ball movement from above...are there not any videos out there that show various wobbles? That would be most interesting to take a look at.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 08 Nov 2011, 14:44 
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A slow mo analysis from above would prove this.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2012, 20:22 
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Elaborating on my physics teacher's explanation of the soccer "wobble ball" (30 years ago, but I don't think I've missed a lot).

Consider the workings a pennywhistle (or recorder, if you like).
Air flows towards the sharp edge of the labium ("ramp" at the bottom of the soundhole) and you would expect the edge to split the airstream smoothly in two parts. That does not happen. Rather, the airflow past the labium is (initially) random.
The air will flow in a manner as to increase the pressure in the air column inside the flute. This pressure will in turn push the airstream over the labium, creating "suction" (due to the Bernoulli effect) which reduces the air column pressure. Reduced pressure will guide the airstream back inside the flute. Given a constant airstream, this process will alternate indefinitely. The air column has a resonance frequency which will regulate the frequency of the alternation, creating a predictable pattern we know as a "tone".

Now consider a TT ball moving through air.
As it moves, it splits the air. Again, the Bernoulli effect says that moving air pulls on the surface of the ball, and faster movement pulls more. By introducing spin, we decide which side of the ball will have the fastest airstream (because more air is guided past that side), so the ball gets a predictable trajectory. If we do not spin the ball, the airstream will be divided randomly. There's no pressure reservoir (air column) to induce regular alternation, but there are minute random airstreams and -waves in every room. Those variations in air pressure and movement influence the direction of the airstreams around the ball, creating enough "Bernoullil differences" to cause a somewhat random trajectory. This is the irregular pattern we know as "wobble". (Or was that "wabble"?)

Not sure if that makes sense to anybody (on first reading, I'm not even sure that it makes sense to me). "Clear as milk" may be the term...


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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2012, 20:59 
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Algernon wrote:
it is clear that soccer balls can "wobble". See, for example, the video below. If you run the video in slow motion (from about 3.30 onwards), it is clear that the trajectory of the ball changes in mid flight. This is "wobble", if anything is. And it continues to "wobble" no matter how many times you replay it. The fact that the ball still "wobbles" even though you can now "predict" with 100% accuracy where the ball is going (because you have seen the clip many times before) shows that "wobble" is not simply an illusion generated by mispredicted trajectory.

And the clip shows balls swinging first one way and then back the other.

A long, long time ago when the earth was still flat and before colour had been invented, I used to play in goal for my football team. Wobble was rare. The rules of soccer stipulate a weight for the ball, but occasionally someone would produce a ball which was underweight. Then there would be lots of wobble and nightmares for me (and the goalie at the other end, but I wasn't so worried about that. :lol: ) Why do lighter balls wobble more than heavy ones? I don't believe it's to do with air currents: soccer balls - even light ones - are too heavy to be pushed around by tiny air currents? Misperception (a la Kees's explanation). No, light balls most definitely swing back against their original direction. Lack of spin producing some sort of Bernoulli effect?

Interestingly, anyone with a few football skills can very easily demonstrate that wobble can take place even when the ball is initially given a lot of spin. Buy a very cheap little kids' plastic football and kick it hard to produce swing. At first the ball will perform as expected but will then reverse swing. Clearly observable and very repeatable.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2012, 22:40 
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Tassie52 wrote:
... soccer balls - even light ones - are too heavy to be pushed around by tiny air currents? Misperception (a la Kees's explanation). No, light balls most definitely swing back against their original direction. Lack of spin producing some sort of Bernoulli effect? ...


With movement through air, the Bernoulli effect is there to some extent all the time. The tiny air currents do not affect the ball much directly, but may sway the airflow around a moving ball. This creates variations in sideways "Bernoulli drag". When a ball has spin, the effect of that outweighs the influence from random air currents, so observable wobble is less likely to occur.

Hypothesis (Theory with no scientific support, potentially starting point for a scientific study):
  • Plastic balls are too smooth to "grab" the air current at all degrees of spin.
  • When it "grabs", it directs airflow towards the backward moving part of the ball, creating "normal" deviation from straight trajectory.
  • When it "slips", both sides of the ball gets equal amounts of airflow. The forward moving side (in the spin) will have faster relative airflow than the backward moving side. This creates the "backward" deviation often associated with plastic balls.

Plastic balls with textured surface will have more "normal" spin properties than smooth balls.


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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2012, 15:09 
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Dear Colleagues,
We certainly can't proceed with this discussion unless we have got an obvious video of the balls wobbling/zigzaging in actual play.
We need material facts to investigate, not merely "brain's fiction".

I suggest we should invite the 'SportScience' video expertise to take a slowmo video close to the table. Those guys are renowed experts at filming of the dynamic sports.
Perhaps we could draw up their unterest of the "drunken balls" in table tennis, the most rare and least explained aerodynamical phenomena not to be found in any sports game other than table tennis. Again, it is quite an odd fact thaн zigzaging phenomena has never been studied before. Not a single paper still found which addressing the subject of fluttering lighweight spheres in airstream.
It is so glorious to be a pioneer researcher of the subject, is it not?? .
FRIENDS,
could anybody contact SportScience administrators someway and depict our purposes for them?

Thanks.
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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2012, 17:17 
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Yes there has - there are lots of studies in baseball on the knuckle ball effect - a very quick google search found http://www.oddball-mall.com/knuckleball/mego.htm for example.

Its pretty much the same effect as you get from a dead block with a long pimple.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 20 Apr 2012, 06:18 
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boosttc wrote:
Yes there has - there are lots of studies in baseball on the knuckle ball effect

As a former baseball catcher and later as an umpire I can say with authority that knuckleballs are real. At the top professional levels catchers switch to a specialized type of glove (larger and more flexible) if receiving pitches from a knuckleballer. Like LP players in TT, they are a rare breed at the top levels because a medicore knuckleball will just get killed. But good knuckleballers drive hitters mad. It may seem impossible from the viewpoint of physics, but I remember once when umpiring how a knuckleball hopped UP over the catcher's glove and hit me in the face mask! I've seen knuckleballs regularly wobble 6 inches one way or the other and sometimes back again on the same pitch. And these were merely top amateur pitchers!

BTW, the term "knuckleball" is a misnomer: the ball is actually held with the fingertips and nails tightly dug in with minimal contact on the palm or fingers. At the pro level, a successful knuckleball pitcher may throw knuckleballs 90% of the time. It doesn't matter if a hitter knows it's coming because the trajectory is so unpredictable. The most significant variables the pitcher has is changing the speed he throws the ball and where/how he grips it. There are several knuckleball pitchers in the baseball Hall of Fame and these guys often pitch until their 40s because pure athleticism isn't the main criteria--like LP players, it's craftiness that wins. One Hall of Fame knuckleballer was Hoyt Wilhelm (from the same town where I live!) who pitched until 2 weeks shy of his 50th birthday.

Here's a great video of a modern-era knuckleballer demonstrating how he pitches:



 

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2012, 15:11 
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I saw a show on tv about this, the force involved is called vortex shedding and the pressre change on either side of the ball changes it's flight from one side to the other. It would happen all the time but normally spin stabilises the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2012, 02:52 
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I see wobble effect a lot of times when playing LP players so I can say for myself that it is very much real. Also I see it only when there is very little spin on the ball.

If there is a lot of spin, technically, the magnus effect will be too strong for wobbling to occur. In practice I am yet to see a heavy spin ball wobble towards me

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 Post subject: Re: wobbling effect
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2012, 23:44 
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Kees wrote:
Recently I read a German article (I forgot which/where, probably on a German forum) which dealt with wobble, arguing that it is a trick played on players by their brains and not an actual phenomenon. The writer argued (if I remember correctly) that according to science objects cannot change their trajectory unless a force is working on them; so if nothing is influencing the ball during its trajectory, it cannot change direction or speed in mid-air. However, players can easily think some balls just do exactly that, for the observation of the ball's trajectory is not continuous, but consists of ascertaining visually 4 to 5 times during its flight the position of the ball and with that information the brain works out the complete trajectory by extrapolation. So players do not actually see the trajectory as a whole, but construct it in their mind, that is, they make a prediction where the ball will be. The prediction is, of course, based on experience. Now, if a ball is "seen" to wobble, what actually is going on is that the prediction fails (that is, the extrapolation does not coincide with the actual trajectory of the ball), and so the ball "suddenly" is "seen" to be at a place where it "shouldn't" be. In other words: the ball does something unexpected. This observation is rationalized by the brain: you think the ball wobbles.
I don't know if this is true, of course, but it does makes sense to me.
Anyhow, logically then, experienced players would make fewer inaccurate extrapolations, so would see less often wobble. If a player has seen every possible return from an LP, he shouldn't see wobble at all anymore. So in order to produce wobble, you should do something unexpected with your LP. Chopping, chop-blocking and pushing will produce returns most opponents will be pretty familar with; but passive blocking or punching spinny balls is something in which quite a few different influences are at work simulataneously and hence are likely to result in trajectories that are difficult to predict - so wobble is to be expected.


I was about to write a post to say just this. My position is that wobble is just a way we describe a really spinless ball that has an unusual trajectory because of it. The ball doesn't really wobble. It can't for reason mentioned by Kees because there is no force to change its trajectory. Our brain computes the trajectory of a ball, in part using a secondary visual structure called the superior colliculus, based on previous experience, and by sampling at a high frequency. It then makes the trajectory look smooth, and usually it is pretty much accurate to what the trajectory really is. The sense of wobble arises as the brain computes a trajectory based on experience and then it has to "reset" when the actual trajectory turns out to not be same as what it had just computed. Part of the "reset" entails eye movements called "saccades" that we are not conscious of making. In the case of table tennis these movements are probably what would be called microsaccades. The ball is not really wobbling, but your brain is telling you that it is. With a lot of experience, your brain learns to compute those trajectories too.

A powerful tool in visual neuroscience is the illusion. These are things that everybody sees, everybody makes the same error in interpreting the image, and it arises because of the way the brain processes information. So these illusions inform a lot about how the information is processed.

OK. I could be wrong. It's going to take a pretty expensive camera to prove it, sadly.

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