OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Recently one of the best players at my club was up against a great player from another club, a two winged looper. The two winged looper made it very hard for my clubmate to take the initiative, but my clubmate is a very good blocker, apparently! He barely won the match by blocking every loop the looper could throw at him, until the looper finally made mistakes. It was great to watch and there were some very long rallies.



Thank you kindly, sir!

I would suggest playing in a lower level, to gain confidence/ learn how to win etc
playing in a high grade against better players is something we all should try to do as in general it will help you to play better, but if you are not good enough yet then you should play in a grade that you can get around 40% wins and try to improve each year.

I'm currently playing in the highest Summer grade in our City at the moment (there are 7 out of 12 players in this current round who have either played for NZ or are national age group champions or in current NZ teams or squads) So far I'm on 14% wins which is lower than I want but its very tough. My natural thoughts are for me to drop down a grade and my partner to find a new team mate, as I'm pulling the team down

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I agree with Rodderz here. Although it can be challenging and at times more rewarding to play at too high a level, most people do not take losing (almost) everything very well. Don't forget that this is a hobby that should be enjoyed and yes for most people winning adds tremendously to the enjoyment. Especially if you're just returning to the sport build up some confidence in your own play by playing at your own level and then slowly grow towards that higher level.

Which 'klasse' do you play in Roenie and at what club?

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I agree with the both of you... it's hard not to get a little frustrated when you lose every match. I still enjoy myself though. Confidence in my own play does suffer, but that's temporary... There is a good chance that my team will be demoted back down a division after this season, unless I improve or my teammates pull a bit of a stunt.

I play in 3rd, wfberkhof. For privacy I don't feel comfortable mentioning the club here. I'll send you a PM.

Roenie the only thing I can think to add here is that if you are able to beat someone 11-3 in a set, then the level should not be above you generally, but you have to consider 2 things. One is changing your game and tactics after you've won a set, so the opponent doesn't know what is coming next. This may mean trying to keep some of your weapons off display in the first set. The second thing to think about is finding a different way to attack the weaknesses you must have exploited in winning the first set (or at least making it seem different). If you think hard enough about analysing all of this as you go, you might actually forget to be nervous about the game, cos you are too busy figuring out how to win the next point!

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I'd say you're quite lucky to have such opportunities, as playing against higher rated players is one of the best ways to elevate one's game, and something that few club players have recurring access to.

By the way you describe your matches, it sounds like your style is somewhat unconventional (perhaps owing to the pips) and this qives you the early advantage. But as you've already found out, that sort of advantage seldom lasts throughout a match, and sometimes not even through the first game. If you're self-taught on your MP and are using it like inverted rubber you'd do well to learn a flatter, deader technique which makes MP much harder to deal with.

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RebornTTEvnglist: Noted & thanks...but do consider that knowing how and when to change game tactics is another thing that comes with experience, and I don't have that many weapons to hide! My strong forehand wins the point once it gets to have a good go at the ball. My backhand flat hitting game is still under construction. In that set you mention I just blasted everything past him at lightspeed (with my FH) as if he wasn't even there. He didn't get a chance to show his weaknesses other than the fact that the first few smashes had him startled and it took him until the 2nd set to get his confidence back. He was popping the balls up, probably hadn't warmed up properly and of course couldn't get his "feel" back because I wasn't letting him play.

nathanso: I more often get behind in points early and lose the first set than the other way around. I'm using SP on backhand, not MP. And yes it's self taught but I'm really still just trying to figure out the technique. I've done some research on SP technique of course but if you guys have any links to instructional videos I'd be very happy with that - all the info I have is in writing. Watching the pros play with SP on youtube doesn't really help because their strokes are too fast (and far away in view) to see the technique properly. There's a few threads on here but the videos linked to appear to reside on some .fr site that's now down, and megaupload.com which has been taken down by the US government and their pathetic laws.

There's great advice here.

I agree that you might want to consider playing in a lower grade to build confidence. Although playing against superior players has its advantages, I do think the disadvantages out weight them.

One of the key advantages to playing in a grade more suited to your level will be your ability to hone your tactical play. If you feel overwhelmed by strong players there's little time or opportunity to be tactical.

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I would agree that there's no point playing opponents that are so much better that you get blown off the table. I consider a match valuable if the better player at least has to play hard to earn the win even if I go down 0-3. If I play someone who is obviously just coasting along then I don't think either of us are getting much benefit out of the match. However, occasionally I'll go up against some of our club's strongest players--some of them won't play lesser players but others don't mind some practice hitting now that I can keep the ball on the table most of the time. We usually won't play a game but they might give a little ad hoc coaching on some point. Some people are just nicer than others!

 

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That's why good clubs are invaluable - there's always a chance you'll play someone at your own level or much higher. I agree that it's next to pointless 'just coasting along', unless you have aspirations to coach. The most memorable games - win or lose - will always be those that are hard fought.

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Played again, just got back. Here's my report. Quotes of advice given by you guys (as echoed in the first post of this thread) in bold. The way I go about this hopefully helps others too.

I applied Nothing to lose. Let go and you could play better.
..which didn't magically seem to produce results. Not doing this would probably inhibit results, though. It did help me relax much more during the afternoon, while preparing to go to the club. That's worth a lot. Whatever was going to happen, was going to happen and I was OK with that.

Singles match 1 - lost 0-3
I played very badly. Handed my opponent an unhealthy amount of unforced errors.
Take notes on HOW and WHY you lost a match.
Too many unforced errors. I lost this one due to my strokes not being engraved enough into my muscle memory in order to produce the shots in less than perfect circumstances, in the broadest sense. I have a year or two of serious practise drills to do, a good number of hours a week, in order to get to the same level of consistency of playing standard, as the players I'm up against. In this particular match my opponent played close to the table and was very fast. I didn't move back from the table when perhaps I should have. But all in all he just had more training. I need to practise flips with my short pimples. I kept flipping his weak underspin serves, with good results but my BH short pips flick is very unrealiable. This cost me so many points but I kept doing it because I knew it was the right thing to do for my style. I mean, easier opening of a point is part of the reason I use pips on backhand in the first place. Train block, push, flip/flick, anyone?

Doubles match - lost 1-3
Especially in the doubles match I simply couldn't hit a ball right, they were all over the place. I'd get one right occasionally but almost every shot was a direct error on my part. My partner was playing very well today, but I was terrible and there was nothing he could do about it. I also had trouble with serve return, see "singles match 3", same opponent.
Take notes on HOW and WHY you lost a match.
It was lack of practise... Need more training to become more consistent, to make my "bad game" a "still decent" game. Need to not miss practice in the weeks I have matches, and practise serve return.

Singles match 2 - lost 1-3
I was up against a good allround player. I still wasn't hitting the ball well AT ALL. I won one set, because I temporarily managed to hit enough of them well enough and he made some silly (serve) errors too.
Take notes on HOW and WHY you lost a match.
Just like in the first match and doubles match, my strokes were all over the place.

It was nothing (mainly) psychological. I didn't get a chance to train this week due to a chronic illness that had a bit of a flare-up. But it's about more than just this week's practise, because as I see it, I just have a good year or two of serious training drills to do in order to get my strokes solid enough to be able to perform them more consistently, and not be good one hour and bad another.

Singles match 3 - lost 2-3
I got my swing back, I was very offensive and my attacks were landing on the table, even at really good angles. I Staid aggressive, unafraid to attack toward end of set/match. My serving game was varied and effective, even though I never really practised serving. My opponent had trouble reading when I had topspin on the serve (I do that a lot, so many players pop the ball up repeatedly I'm still amazed they don't read it better). I scored a few points by attacking his elbow. It was effective against this guy but I was too preoccupied by everything else to think of applying that tactic more often. (Lock in on your opponent's elbow and keep hitting it there.) My concentration was strong, better than it had been. (Focus, focus, focus.) Of course when you hit the ball better, it's easier to stay focused because you don't have a reason to get frustrated with yourself.
Take notes on HOW and WHY you lost a match.
Serve return. My opponent had VERY good serves. Harder to return and read than mine. I wasn't the only one having trouble with them, but I was the one who had the most trouble. I was the better player apart from the serve receive. His serves earned him most of his points. Two points almost every time. I would definitely have won this one if I'd returned serve better. I was stronger in the rallies. I dug deep but I simply couldn't make up for the serve receive problem. My opponent verbally expressed being a little impressed with my attacking abilities. When I'm hitting my forehand well, I never miss many smashes and loops once I have the initiative and I tend to find the angles the defending player can't get to. It's amazing I even got to 2-2 (by coming back in set 3 and wining it 12-10 - great control of nerves due to Set longer term goals and forget about losses in the interim**.) and the last set was a good battle too (lost it regardless of staying aggressive, unafraid to attack toward end of set/match, due to him serving from 8 and getting to 10). ** My long term goal is to score at least 33% in the "division" below the one I currently compete in. 50% would be great, but I'll be satisfied with 33%. Note that this is very specific, and measurable, which helps.

After this match, my teammates felt I had done very well and made up for my bad performance earlier. Of course they saw that I couldn't return this guy's serves, that I was doing soooo well in the rallies to compensate, and how hard I was trying, but alas...no cigar.

I'm not disappointed even though I have now lost 18 singles matches in a row, because I honour Set longer term goals and forget about losses in the interim and the team we played today is in the top 3, so losses were likely to happen. The final score was a 3-7 loss for my team.

And of course, Consider all of your losses as part of your training.
I probably beat my opponents on that one, this time around.


This sums up today's "learning from my losses" points of note.

1. Serious practise drills for a year or two, a good number of hours a week for consistency
2. Try not to miss practice especially if I have matches later that week
3. Practise flips (with my short pimples)
4. Learn when to move back from the table and do it
5. Train serve return and serve with coach
6. Again, two words: serve. return.
7. Lock in on your opponents elbow and remember to repeat this

Lost match 1 because of 1,2,3,4
Lost doubles because of 1,2,3,6
Lost match 2 because of 2,1
Lost match 3 because of 6

In short: practice drills a lot to increase consistency + practice the serve return a lot plus flips.

I might just ask that player who is good at serving for a serve and receive practice session. He also had some trouble with my serves, so the benefit would be mutual to some degree.

It's difficult to keep believing in myself given the losing streak, any pieces of advice on that?

Played again tonight and lost all 3 singles matches but won the doubles match. This seems to be a trend.
I didn't miss my 2 nights of training this week. (I worked on serving and flips and played games vs my coach and 2 of the best players at the club.)
I did let my coach know that I wanted to practise serve return, but the response was that that's best done by playing vs lots of different people, in other words, matchplay experience. Which I suppose is true, but I don't seem to get enough practice against those serves that I find hard to return....the match is over before I'm able to properly adjust. May have to get into the habit of getting opponents to help me out after the matches.

I lost one match 3-2 after being 2-1 in front, due to failing at decent serve return again.
My opponent had 2 serves I couldn't return properly and made full use of that.
The other 2 matches I was just outclassed. Not much else to say about that.
During warmup I remember noticing that one of them had a weaker backhand compared to mine, so I decided to play my forehand straight and my backhand diagonally. I didn't get to make use of this tactic though because I generally didn't even get that far.
One of those opponents afterwards told me that she's been playing competition every week since she was 12. Go figure.
My teammates couldn't win their matches either, so we lost 1-9. (doubles match won)

I've now played 21 singles matches and lost all 21 of them, very frustrating, makes me a bit sad.
I've won 4 out of 7 doubles matches (I think).

I guess doubles is easier for me because I can abuse the fact that they have to move more and in a certain direction and that simplifies the game a lot for me, which evens things out, and my weaknesses generally aren't abused so much. My teammate hitting every other ball probably helps keep control of the rally.

There's 3 weeks to go before this season ends. Next week we're competing against the nr 1 team. We'll most likely take a 9-1 or 10-0 loss and there's probably zero chance I'll win one. The week after (so, in two weeks time) we're up against the weakest team (we're at the bottom in the standings, they're directly above us, leading us by a few points). If I'm going to win one match this season it's going to be then. Last time we played them I barely lost 2 matches out of 3. Today's opponents told me I've definitely improved since last time they played me, so fingers crossed.

I played against 2 initially much stronger players for 2 years and did lots of drills until I am generally stronger against one and not too much weaker than the other. When I started pennant play this year at the club I jumped into a division where I was one of the weaker players at the start, but ended the season beating one of the strongest players. If you can persist through discouragement I believe you will end up a better player quicker than by being in a division where you can win easily much of the time.

It seems you are very close to winning your first match, but there may be a little psychological block that will largely go once you win your first. Believe me, I've been there!

A couple of ideas:

If you could get better service return it seems possible that you would already have won a match or two. This shows that your game is already good enough to win, at least occasionally. Have you thought about going LP on the backhand? I know, it's lazy, but I find very few serves that I can't return on my LP.

Going in with a "killer instinct" attitude; I will punish his mistakes; when in the lead I will continue to play in a similar way to crush him further; I will dominate and make him frustrated. Learn to love the feeling of seeing your opponent get frustrated. Pulling out your trickiest serve at the time when you have got psychological momentum building in your favor is a great way to really crush your opponent's spirit. Make them believe you are the better player, even if it is hard to believe that yourself! Make them feel there is nothing they can do to win.

In my first 2 pennant matches this season I lost every game and only won the odd set. In the third match, by applying the killer instinct, I won every game. Once I set up the belief in my opponents mind that I was the better player they folded psychologically and instead of backing off I pressed home every possible advantage.

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Hi Malleus, great that you improved by sticking with it and doing the drills, well done. What I get from your little story is that it takes patience, it took you 2 years to achieve what you describe. People don't double their skills overnight, and I guess we (I) like to try and ignore that. As for persisting through discouragement vs being in a division where you easily win most of the time, those are two extremes that are best to avoid I think, as discussed earlier in the thread. Currently I'm at the "discouraging" extreme. (Which in itself is something that builds character I suppose, losing will have less of an effect on the psyche later down the road. I'm sure it's not all bad.)

As far as serve return goes, I guess it's mostly a matter of learning to use much more extreme bat angles than what seems natural, more extreme than you would expect. Because we have less than perfect TT balls at the club (many appear to be soft and in need of replacement) I brought in a new ball from home, for our latest match. My opponents started warming up with it. They used very soft tensor rubbers for a forehand-to-forehand hitting rally, somewhat off the table. One of them was using Tibhar Nimbus Soft. I could hear both their forehand sponges bottoming out hard (THWACK!) on every shot that was semi hard and the ball was toast within the first few minutes. They picked up another ball to play with but neither of them realized what was really going on, because they commented on "the strange sound of our building". Apparently it's a trend to use extremely soft "tensor" rubbers to make them more controllable... anyway, as a result of using those stupid rubbers, they get loads of spin on their serves, without too much effort. That's what gives me trouble. I won't resort to such shortcuts myself, because I will simply work on my serves using classic rubber, which in the long run will make me a better player with a stronger allround game (especially fast loop drives off the table, which are limited by their too soft rubbers).

Regarding your suggestion of using long pips... no. Just, no. In fact, I'm using short pimple rubber on my backhand now and I'm going to go back to basics by swapping it out after the season ends in 3 weeks time.

I'm going back to inverted on both sides while I'm still developing everything from strokes to timing and footwork.

Thanks for the tip on being focused on punishing any mistakes. This seems a good way to learn patience. If you look for mistakes you're automatically less likely to attack a ball you really shouldn't, which is one of my recurring sins. Following up psychological momentum with a tricky serve...I like that too, I'll add your tips to the OP.

As far as serve return goes with inverted I find that tacky chinese rubber (H3 neo or Haifu Blue whale 2) work well for me because they have lots of control in the short game, and flipping is alot easier. Also on serves I find I get a ton of spin. Maybe you could try one of those along with your Mark V after the season. Whether you use it on the backhand or forehand one of those should be good.

This is probably something you already know but if you don't it should help a little. Also with serve return has anyone taught you the "clock method"? It's something I was taught as a kid however you also have to consider the opponent could stroke upward right at the end.

It works best for sidespin combination serves. It goes like this. If you are looking at the ball as a clock from the receivers perspective. If the opponent serves by hitting the ball at 7 oclock you should touch the ball at 7 oclock on your push to negate the sidespin and allow you to place the ball.

------- 12
-----11 ----1
---10 -------- 2
9 -------------- 3
--- 8----------4
----> 7 -----5
-------- 6

If you notice he stroked up at the 7 oclock position from a right handers backhand serve then you have to touch the 11 oclock position. Using a loop/drive/ or soft block.

If the serve is pure sidespin at 9 coming swiping toward the 3 oclock position just touch the 3 oclock side to block or push it over or you have the opportunity to sidespin loop from the right side of the ball.

Most right handers will hit from a pendulum serve at from the 6 to the 3 oclock position. All you have to determine was whether they stoked upwards or not. If they did not you can push any short serve over touching that exact position. If they did just know you have to cover the ball from between 12 to 3 depending. Generally if they did to produce more of a topspin then the timing of the contact was later and closer to the table. If you did not get it from viewing the contact wait a little longer. If it seems to float a little it is a backspin combo, and if it kicks then it is a topspin combo.
The only other thing you have to pay attention to is where on the paddle your opponent hit it. The closer to the handle the deader (less spin) the ball will be and vice versa.

The key is to pay attention to the contact. If you have questions on how this applies to a particular serve (tomahawk, pendulum, reverse pendulum, reverse tomahawk, windshield wiper, or even push method from the pendulum start posistion) let me know.

I hope that was clear. It's much easier to show than to put into words.

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