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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 03:47 
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I am mid 1600's modern defender type, and able to attack fairly well with my FH (inverted), and to a much lesser degree with my LP from my BH. It seems when I play the "better" players, about 1700+, it seems, they seem able to just SMASH my LP balls back very hard/fast unless I send them a heavy chop or BH loop.

So, my thought is to try learning to use a grip that allows me to smack the ball hard from my BH side using my FH inverted rubber without needing to twiddle (since I can't do it quick enough). What seems to fit the bill is a Seemiller type grip, along the lines of Hookshot's grip that I found posted by Fossl, which might be what shoebox9 was using, also. It would allow me to use the FH rubber when I want to attack, or long pips to chop, depending on the situation, if I can get myself to doing it reliably.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2117

Does anyone have any instructional or tutorial video showing more details on how to do strokes with this style grip? I have found a few videos of Seemiller and Boggan playing matches, but nothing instructional other than a intro showing his grip from Danny on his DVD.

A 2nd isssue is that I've been trying it vs my robot with some success, but when I try to play using it, I only realize I should have used it afterwards, and seem to play my usual game. What tips can anyone give as to how to break old habits and replace them?

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 11:56 
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There's a lengthy thread here on Seemiller grip, probably dating back to 2010 or 2011. Not even Dan Seemiller himself uses his namesake grip these days, so it's not a habit I'd recommend picking up. Better idea: Learn how to attack with your BH LP using standard shakehand grip. I use 755 1.0 and find the BH topspin drive quite easy with a standard shakehand grip though it does take practice and is decidedly different than a BH topspin stroke using inverted rubber. This advice from a lifelong Seemiller gripster, albeit of the Ann Alvarez vareity.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 13:17 
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I'm not sure if I found that thread or not?

I played tonight with the grip in the pics above. One thing is I think I'd need to use a long handled blade. My FH worked fairly well. My BH chop wasn't great, but better than a year ago. My pushing was less stable on FH and downright terrible on BH. I still had trouble getting myself to attack with the Seemiller BH. I'd estimate it will drop my rating by 500-600 points initially, and in 6 months or a year would be able to get it back plus 100-200 if I could learn to attack from both sides with BH.

To stay with shakehand grip, I either have to learn some way to attack with the long pips that the better players can't just smash me to smithereens with like they have been doing, or find something other than long pips for the BH that can both attack and chop well against the loopers.

I tried twiddling, but can't do it fast enough or reliably enough to do it and improve the overall odds on any given point. Even doing it for a serve and going immediately back is difficult and unreliable.

You say I should stay shakehands... Enlighten me, please, if you would, how to attack in a way that the better inverted players can't just easily beat me senseless...

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 14:15 
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Which side are you using for backhand chop? I can chop all day with anti or pips on the backside on backhand.
I usually do not chop except to let students learn to hit chops.


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 14:40 
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Are you using sponge under your grippy Screw One LP's? If your backhand pip attack is proving to be cannon fodder for the enemy, IMHO you need to change something. (ie game plan, looping/hitting technique, or equipment.) If you want to attack on the b/h instead of chopping (or chop-blocking at the table), do you have the best pips/sponge thickness for this?

I still use a mixture of the grip shown above, and shakehand.

My b/h inverted attack is a fantastic weapon, and usually either wins outright or sets up an instant point because it's very difficult for an opponent to predict which way the ball is about to go. I can switch to this grip faster than twiddling, so there's also a nice surprise element.

Being left handed, it's hard for me to out-loop a right hander from my b/h to their f/h, with this grip (or any grip), so for me this grip is a surprise inverted attack (ie as opponent is lifting low friction OX LP underspin), not a rally tool.

However, while it's temping to use this grip instead of shakehand, the downsides are that you lose f/h power & spin, and on the b/h it's impossible to chop or chop-block with the same flexibility & touch.

Do I recommond learning it for b/h pip defenders? YES, YES, YES! Practice seriouis counter hitting on the b/h, and quick blocking on the f/h. BUT a shake f/h offers much more, so be careful how much of your future f/h firepower you might be trading in, if you switch to this grip solely.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 16:57 
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hookshot wrote:
Which side are you using for backhand chop? I can chop all day with anti or pips on the backside on backhand.
I usually do not chop except to let students learn to hit chops.


When playing shakehands, I normally chop with the Inverted on FH and chop with the Long Pips on BH. I also sometimes chop or push with the Long Pips on the FH side without twiddling by twisting my arm around (I'm double jointed and leftie) in what's called a chicken wing to return spinny serves or other short stuff at the table or below table height when its out of sight.

I didn't try the chicken wing with the Seemiller grip, but with some adjustment to angles was able to chop with the Inverted on FH and with the Long Pips on BH. To test it I played a match against a 1500's level heavy looper and he was able to beat me in a close match, but I won most of my points on serves, and lost most on rallys because my chops and pushes were not honed in, like they are when playing shakehands. In time that would fix itself, I guess.

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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2012, 19:26 
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Shoebox9 wrote:
Are you using sponge under your grippy Screw One LP's? If your backhand pip attack is proving to be cannon fodder for the enemy, IMHO you need to change something. (ie game plan, looping/hitting technique, or equipment.) If you want to attack on the b/h instead of chopping (or chop-blocking at the table), do you have the best pips/sponge thickness for this?

I still use a mixture of the grip shown above, and shakehand.

My b/h inverted attack is a fantastic weapon, and usually either wins outright or sets up an instant point because it's very difficult for an opponent to predict which way the ball is about to go. I can switch to this grip faster than twiddling, so there's also a nice surprise element.

Being left handed, it's hard for me to out-loop a right hander from my b/h to their f/h, with this grip (or any grip), so for me this grip is a surprise inverted attack (ie as opponent is lifting low friction OX LP underspin), not a rally tool.

However, while it's temping to use this grip instead of shakehand, the downsides are that you lose f/h power & spin, and on the b/h it's impossible to chop or chop-block with the same flexibility & touch.

Do I recommond learning it for b/h pip defenders? YES, YES, YES! Practice seriouis counter hitting on the b/h, and quick blocking on the f/h. BUT a shake f/h offers much more, so be careful how much of your future f/h firepower you might be trading in, if you switch to this grip solely.


I do have Long Pips with sponge, actually some are the same ones as I have in 0X, but was told to take them off because they reduced my ability to chop vs hard loops. The best candidates I have with sponge are Nittaku ScrewSoft 1.0mm, Globe 979 .6-.8mm, and Friendship 729 755-2 .8mm. I also have Dawei 388D-1 1.0mm, DrNeubauer Fighter 1.0 or 1.5 but those didn't seem to just work with my style when I tried them. I also have a bunch of short pips rubbers, but never did find any of those that excelled at pushing and chopping, likely because most of the ones I have are on thicker sponge. Perhaps the TSP Spectol or DHS 651 might work for BH chopping with the right sponge.

I am not a good blocker. I usually only block by reflex and don't even know I'm doing it. Its tragic for my opponent if they hit the ball anywhere near my paddle because its not unusual for it to go back and land. I typically play a foot off the back to give myself a bit more time. I suppose I should learn to block on purpose, and probably especially should learn to block loops.

I don't do any chop blocking or any sideways blocking. Other things I probably should try to learn.

After thinking about it tonight, I think I should probably stay with the shakehands grip, but as I have been trying to do for the past few weeks, I will continue to try to get myself to put my thumb behind the blade and go to a Seemiller BH using the inverted when a topspin attack using my fast inverted from my BH is the right shot. It will probably take months to get myself accustomed to doing it enough that I just do it when its the right thing to do. That was the problem with it the past few weeks. I could do it vs the robot (been doing a few buckets a day), and less when practicing, but in matches, I almost never was able to get myself to do it, or do it in time and do it well. I tried the "Seemiller grip all the time" solution tonight to avoid having to change grip to do the inverted BH attack, and back again afterwards, but it seems I'm sacrificing a lot for as often as I would use the inverted BH attack.

I will also give the Long Pips or even Short Pips with sponge another try, and see if I can get a good looper to help me get it working well. My best shots have always been the serves, pushes and chops, and I seem to be able to adapt them pretty quickly to different blades or rubbers, so I think with some effort, I can make that work. With regards to BH chop using short pips, has anyone tried that?

PS: One problem I had doing the Seemiller BH (with my FH side) was that when I put my thumb behind the blade, it seems like I need to be using a blade with a longer handle for me to be able to hold it stably and control the angle well. I know one good player that uses a windshield wiper grip (forefinger and thumb in V on back of paddle, not Seemiller) and I noticed the paddle he uses has a handle that is longer than most. I'm guessing that his longer handle helps him hold the paddle better because it has that much more contact area in his palm. Has anyone else got this problem? Or maybe its the shape of the handle? Both his and mine are straight, but his is longer and thinner, so on his, my fingers seem to go around farther allowing a better grip, and there is more contact of the handle with my palm as well. I think because the thumb isn't holding the top of the handle (because I move it to the back to control the blade angle), it forces the 3 fingers and palm that are left to do more of the gripping.

PSS: Luckily I have a blade sitting around that's the same as the guy that plays windshield wiper, and I did some in detail measuring, and looked at how my hand grips the thinner handle as compared to how it grips the handle on my other blades. Because the handle is thinner, all three fingers go around it onto the side, where with my other blades, only one finger really goes around it, and the other two don't contact the side of the handle, so I can't hold or control it as well. So, what I'm saying is that I think its thickness of the handle causing the problem, not its length.

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Last edited by Old-Man-Southpaw on 03 Jun 2012, 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 00:58 
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This is what I am thinking after reading your posts.

Do not use Seemiller grip. You do not understand the grip. One of its strong points when done correctly is tremendous blocking ability. Some people have trouble blocking with S/M grip. It is because they stand up too much. You Must crouch. The grip excells at blocking hard loops and it has no crossover.
If you dont have power on the forhand, you are doing something wrong. I am known for hitting hard and that is not flat hitting.
The grip is not made for chopping although I can chop very well with the anti on backhand. I use the anti most to make drop blocks, return serves and to attack backspin.
The grip is best when you hold the table. If you back off the table, you have a problem in front of your body.
If you have no power on loops on backhand with the primary side, you are doing it wrong. My backhand loop with the primary rubber is VERY hard and spinny, comparable to a good RPB.
I see too many S/M grip users with a weak backhand because they are NOT doing a loop stroke, they are doing a LIFT stroke. (Same goes for shake players also) :)

My advice, if you do not have a Good S/M coach, go back to shakehands. :)


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 01:24 
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hookshot wrote:
This is what I am thinking after reading your posts.

Do not use Seemiller grip. You do not understand the grip. One of its strong points when done correctly is tremendous blocking ability. Some people have trouble blocking with S/M grip. It is because they stand up too much. You Must crouch. The grip excells at blocking hard loops and it has no crossover.
If you dont have power on the forhand, you are doing something wrong. I am known for hitting hard and that is not flat hitting.
The grip is not made for chopping although I can chop very well with the anti on backhand. I use the anti most to make drop blocks, return serves and to attack backspin.
The grip is best when you hold the table. If you back off the table, you have a problem in front of your body.
If you have no power on loops on backhand with the primary side, you are doing it wrong. My backhand loop with the primary rubber is VERY hard and spinny, comparable to a good RPB.
I see too many S/M grip users with a weak backhand because they are NOT doing a loop stroke, they are doing a LIFT stroke. (Same goes for shake players also) :)

My advice, if you do not have a Good S/M coach, go back to shakehands. :)


Thanks to both of you for taking the time to read and reply :)

I know 2 certified teacher/coaches both of whom I've done a small amount of training with (I'm not able to spend a lot as I'm retired with no pension). Neither normally use a Seemiller grip themselves. The one coach was surprised how well I could hit the ball when I'd put my thumb behind the blade and do a Seemiller style BH hit shot, and said that it would be a great shot to be able to use if I can get it to work reliably. The other coach didn't watch me doing it and laughed at me when he heard me discussing it with the blocker/hitter that plays windshield wiper (whom he coaches). That hurt, but I am not dead yet.

As far as blocking, yes, I know from playing the windshield wiper guy that the grip is great for blocking, but the problem is that in my mind, I'm a chopper/hitter, and my reflexes work to getting me to do those, not block. I realize that I'd be better off trying to block some of those loops, but I just have never been able to do it. Its another weak hole in my game that needs filled, LOL.

BTW, my FH was doing well with the grip, but yes, I had to get lots lower to chop or push. But anyway, I don't think trying to learn to use it all the time is going to be worth the months of effort it would take for me to relearn so many strokes, but do think the idea of using it just to attack from the BH using the FH side rubber is both worthwhile and viable, because it costs me none of my current abilities, and adds to my strengths.

Could you show me any video of you (or anyone else) looping from the BH side using the Seemiller style grip so I can see if I can learn how to do it? I have a camera and tripod that will do 60 fps in HD, so I could record and analyze my strokes if I had something to work towards and compare to. If I could get it to do that in addition to my fast attack hit shot, it would be much more worthwhile, because currently with the long pips on BH, I can only attack with a BH loop if they send me an underspin ball.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 01:42 
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If you have the Seemiller video, he does all the stroke demos with the Seemiller grip. As I recall, he said he's working on a BH loop for his game and he tries to hit some on the vid.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 01:52 
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Backhand loop, S/M grip.

(for right hander)
Sweet spot is right in front of the left shoulder or just outside.

Start of stroke, body turned slightly to the left.
Palm down, forarm almost level, elbow in front of shoulder, hand a little lower than the elbow.
Bat starts a little below ball height, from a few inches in front of the shoulder.
Blade is only open about 30 degrees, (almost flat to the table),
Contact is made only 8 or 10 inches out. stroke continues. Blade ends up not much higher than contact. Blade ends up FLAT or horizontal to the table. On a hard loop, the arm will end up straight.
The wrist is used. At start, the wrist is cocked such that the thumb is towards the forarm. The wrist uncocks by moving it so the pinky finger moves towards the forarm, the wrist moves in line with the forarm.
If the bat ends up high, like head high, with the blade vertical, that is a lift stroke. NO POWER.

Seemiller uses a completly different grip than I do. He changes grip forhand to backhand. He does not attack, (loop) from the backhand side near as much as I do.

My friend Tommyzai uses thumb and first finger on the backside. He can not do a loop, (injury, so can not lift hand above shoulder) He holds the table at all cost and punch blocks 95%. I have seen him take a 2150 looper.


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 02:50 
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Thanks again for the replies and ideas.

I got the handle fixed to where I can hold onto it better with three fingers, now. My middle finger is just able to touch my palm when the thumb is behind in Seemiller mode, and the other two fingers have good gripping surface as well. There is no loss of grip holding it shakehands as a result. If I need more grip, I'll get the grip tape out and try that.

I will switch the long pips to the Globe 979 with .7mm sponge to make my BH rubber sound more similar to the FH, and get myself more hitting power with the pips. I only chose that particular one because its the only LP with sponge I have that's black until the 755-2 arrives next week. One of those two should work, i think. I will need to practice chopping and pushing with it, but within a few weeks should be able to adapt. I will also see if I can't figure out how to attack underspin shots with it.

IIRC, Danny says on the DVD that the grip's weakness is the BH loop, but maybe that's because of the way he's holding it or doing it. I will still re-view it, just to see.

I will try re-reading thru Hookshot's instructions carefully, and go thru the internet vids again to see if I can find someone good doing it as described. The more things I can make work using the inverted on BH, will mean more opportunities to use it, and the more I use it, the easier it will get, I think.

It will be a month before I know if its working, I guess. I'll plan to do 300 balls a day (or more if I need to) at it with the robot, and try to play practice points more and play fewer matches to try to get myself to use it more and more until I'm doing it, and well, without having to force myself to do it. Seeing it work will be the reinforcement that will get me there. The more and better it works, the easier it will be to do it under pressure.

PS: Hookshot, was that instructions for loop against topspin? How do you change it when its against a chop or push?

PSS: Anyone know of any youtube vids with someone looping BH this way? I didn't find any.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 04:35 
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Against a push or chop, OPEN the blade more. If it is a hard chop, open the blade and start the stroke lower. Same as shake. :)


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2012, 04:54 
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hookshot wrote:
Against a push or chop, OPEN the blade more. If it is a hard chop, open the blade and start the stroke lower. Same as shake. :)


I know this is sad, but so far, shakehands, I can only loop against underspin reliably on the BH with long pips, and its a stroke I came up with myself, and for whoever is on the other side of the table, it gets very ugly because it lands just behind the net, and either double bounces or stays low and drops to the floor just off the back or either side. They either chop it back for a repeat, and I do it again at them or this side or that, or they pop it up for me to kill, so long as I don't miss. Funny how they don't chop at me anymore after I do that once or twice :)

I've never been able to do any decent inverted BH topspin, much less a loop, much less a loop against topspin, before. That is why the Seemiller grip thing is good. Its different than all the other things that I have failed at doing, so it gives me a chance to learn something new and different, as well as useful.

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PostPosted: 05 Jun 2012, 05:26 
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Just for fun, with 10 or 15 min practice time, I played using the grip above vs a 1100 level normal style player. I lost 3-2, but actually, that wasn't bad, considering I was using the Defence II with short/wide handle. I didn't use the inverted for BH much as it was all I could do to win some rallies with things not being normal. I need to learn to recognize early in a shot that I want to use it rather than the BH long pips.

Anyway, it says there is hope. So when I got home, I took the oversized Nittaku Monophonic blade I have that has the thin/long handle (which is the same as the windshield wiper player's), and mounted up standard sized rubber with the same 0X long pips I normally use, and inverted similar to what I normally use (just a bit softer and slower because that's the closest I had in the correct color), added hockey tape to the grip so that 3 fingers could hold on and control it well, and then did a bunch of experiments with the robot.

I'm working on trying as many of the different shots I might want to use, doing 100 balls of each at a time, giving the robot a small leeway of randomness once I think I know how to do the stroke I want to use in that situation.

The weakest areas so far are FH chop and FH loop vs underspin. Keep in mind that I have never been able to learn to do a FH loop shakehands very well, either.

My FH chop works, generally, but nowhere near as smoothly/low as shakehands because I need to move my body more to makeup for the change in the racket angle in my hand. I don't see a solution for this other than to learn to adjust, and chop less/attack more from the FH side.

The FH loop vs underspin works about as well or badly as it does shakehands, meaning a lot of balls go into the top part of the net and a lot clip the top of the net, and many of those that do manage to clear it go off the back because they don't arc down enough to hit. I would say I'm not getting enough arc on the ball to get it up and over, or down on the other side. Does that mean I'm not spinning it enough? It seemed that way. I've never been good timing the swing to brush the ball. I really need to improve that if I plan to attack more with my FH.

Surprisingly, the BH hit and loop vs underspin worked without any difficulty, which they never have with inverted before.

Something else that worked by surprise was a flat BH pips smash. Very weird, but went off the FH side or corner or down the BH line of the table quickly and "nicely". My BH pips chop still works, just not quite as well. I'm guessing it would improve over time. Its no longer easy to do a BH pips topspin shot, but I don't see that as a big deal because I was getting killed too often on it, anyway.

Any pointers or examples on FH chop or FH loop vs underspin would be appreciated. I think I will do some more days of robot ball practice, and then try it again vs a lower level normal style player to see if I am able to learn to control it better and use the inverted BH more. If it improves, I will cut the Monophonic down to the standard size of the rubber, and drill out the handle a bit to get its weight down. Its like trying to swing an airplane wing as it is.

_________________
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---
USATT xxxx Lost it all by playing before recovered.
Blade: TTPiet OFF-/ALL custom
FH: Tibhar Evolution MXP Max
BH: Tibhar Grass DTecs 0X Long Pips


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