OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I was wondering one thing: many players told me that if you want to defend effectively with long pips you also have to know how to put heavy spin on the ball with your forehand, because pips (I play with frictionless) are getting dangerous only when there is certain amount of spin in the game. On the other hand, I see players like Dr. Neubauer, or Amy Solja (I know she switched to inverted forehand, but she used short pips on forehand also) who play with short pips on their forehand. And that looks to me like exactly the opposite of what they need on their forehands, because you can give more spin on the ball with inverted rubber than with the short pips. So, tactically, what is the point of using short pips on forehand if you have long pips on the backhand? What do you want to achieve in the game, what is the idea, or strategy when you serve low spin service with the short pips, what next?

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Blade: Donic Persson Powerplay
FH: Inverted rubber..
BH: Dr Neubauer Super Block Extreme

For me it is survival!

Service return with btf ortho on fh and feint ox on bh gives me better position and better odds during house league.

I briefly tried short pips on the forehand with long on the backhand and had some of the worst results of my playing career, so I put the inverted back on the forehand. I think it's a style that can work, but it just didn't suit my stroke style. I think for it to work, you have to play close to the table and play a pure blocking/hitting style, you can't back off the table and you need to have quick reflexes. You do have a bit of a disadvantage because you're not able to spin the ball, but if you are really good at blocking and hitting on both sides, it can work. It's just difficult to master.

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"The greatest teacher, failure is"
USATT Rating: 1725
Blade: Stiga Cybershape Carbon
FH Rubber: Butterfly Tenergy 19 2.1
BH Rubber: Dr Neubauer ABS3 1.5

Agree with dwruck. It's also a matter of changing your tactical perspective when playing. By playing sp on your fh, you are now emphasizing speed over spin, placing time pressures on your opponent, esp. loopers, to cause errors in return. This benefits close-to-table attack players. What you are exchanging in sp (vs. inverted) on your fh is (a) speed, (b) placement, (c) time pressures and (d) control over (1) spin and (2) power. You can check Johnny Huang's videos and career that allowed him to play at top-10 levels into his 40s with sp on both sides. But note the change in tactics.

I'm new to double pips style. Double Fish 1615 on BH and 802 Mystery III 2.1 on FH.
I can generate enough spin with my 802 on serves and pushes, I hardly loop with it. I love smashing all sorts of balls that wander above the net line. My long pips BH provides a target rich environment for my 802 smash.
I play push blocker style of play exclusively near and about the table.
I play at a low to intermediate level and I believe my style will be crushed at higher levels of competition.

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

I am an attacker who at one time used SP on BH, so I have a pretty good sense of what those rubbers can and can't do. My argument having played against these styles is the thing that makes good defenders tricky to deal with is the constant variation they give you -- in spin, speed, trajectory of the ball. This is maximized with LP (or occasionally thin SP) on BH side and inverted on FH. If you use LP on BH side and SP on forehand side, you are giving up a substantial portion of this advantage. You become much less deceptive. You will still have some speed variation but trajectory and spin much less so. Also the LP side on your BH means for sure you are going to get lots of underspin coming back at you that you need to be able to lift with a bit of arc, and SP are not very well suited for doing this. As somebody above said, good players will feast on this. Just one guy's opinion.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH

About the low-spin serve, it stays lower bounce-wise and is less(edit MORE) difficult to hit or loop back compared to inverted serves(EDIT bec it stays lower!). It will be misread at least once per game, guessing here because it looks like it should have more spin to match the speed of the serve like serving with the long pip side.

Playing with short pips OX is just about speed reduction - the attacker has to slow the swing to match the speed...

There is still a smaller range of variation but this might be more confusing for the attacker.

Lastly, I have been warned to stay away from the inverted fh side because the higher level players will atack this side, unless you have a good fh yourself and can deal with quality high spin attacks using your fh. Dont give those guys speed/spin adinfinitum!!!!!

Edit: Well, its May 1, house league is over next week, wemade it to the finals hurray! after cycling and testingdiff blades rubbers, I have decided to stick with my R2, P1R OX, SST combo. I play much better with inverted on the fh so this is the second time I have put down my short pips

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A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!

Hello Baal, I was thinking more of playing SP on FH more like defender style, opting for safety by chopping, waiting for weak balls that I can smash. Deception will come from twiddling to give different spins on both wings.

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

I agree with Dwruck who said I play this style using Giant Dragon Meteorite Soft in OX (or sometimes Globe 979 in OX) and Friendship 802-40 in 2.2, and it is quite effective, but especially on the forehand side it is fast and you have to have the reflexes. I think of it as a variation on the classic single-sided pips-out penholder style: left push, right attack - only the "left push" is much more complex with OX LPs, which are capable of stopping the ball more (more disruption) and better at attacking backspin, so you get more variety on the backhand side than classic penholders tended to produce. There's another difference as well: allthough you don't have to, it is possible and effective to have the backhand dominate your game, which will become more defensive; with the penholder you can't quite do that. And a third difference: the classic penholder strategy was/is to pin down your opponent and hit the winner where the opponent is not, but even though you can do this with LP/SP, the extra option is to move the opponent around and force him to make mistakes that way. But despite these differences it feels much the same to me (I also play penholder from time to time) because you can't leave the table - even with a rather spinny SP like the 802-40 you have no real attacking power away from the table, and you can only defend well with the backhand. If you leave the table it is hard to get back; the only way that works is chopping one very deep and low with lots of backspin, so the opponent has to go for a safe loop - that you can block with the LP at the table, or attack (punch) with the SP. It is best to stay close, and as your forehand will be fast due to the LP, returns will come in fast as well, so you have to have the reflexes for your SP forehand and the touch for your LP backhand.
Still, I think it is easier to do this with SP/LP than with INV/LP. The inverted needs a longer stroke, therefore more time, than the SP; and time is short... If you leave the table to loop, your LP will be used for chopping, and unless it has quite a bit of sponge, you're not going to get the same variation in your LP defense as with OX close to the table, and certainly not much offensive elements.
As to the need to introduce spin into the game yourself to make the LP effective, I think this is not true. In the first place, an OX LP will be quite effective by varying the speed alone, denying the opponent any rhythm. Second, it is also very good at redirecting incoming speed, placing it awkwardly for the opponent. Third, any opponent using inverted himself (and most of them will) just can't help bringing spin into the game, so it will be there anyway, most of the time. If you happen to have an opponent who is using short pips and he is any good, you'll be in trouble though, because he will likely have a better attack in his backhand than you do; you'll have to keep it forehand-to-forehand most of the time.

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Without opponent, no match.

Wow! Kees, I am quite sure that it took you years of experience to come up with such a comprehensive analysis of the SP/LP style. Now I will need some time to digest all you have said, maybe I will get better understanding as I progress with my pimples play.

I really appreciate it Kees. Thanks

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Joola Rosskopf Emotion, FH T05 red, BH Dignics 05 black

I have this problem. I played with DH Dragonow (short pips FH) and Giant Dragon Talon ox (long pips BH). But I lost a lot of points with my BH, so I tried RITC 755 0,75 (long pips). My style isn't now disruptive at all. I still lose a lot of points with my BH, and players have no problem.

So I'm thinking about:

1. Try Giant Dragon Talon ox BH again.
2. Or try inverted FH / short pips BH.
2. Or try inverted FH / long pips BH.

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Donic Cayman + Xiom Vega Europe max. (FH) + Palio CK531A ox (BH)

Play table tennis and help animals!

I could have put this my blog but I thought I'd revive this topic... in addition to my experiments with dtecs and talon on the FW+, I've been working on using pips on the fh and bh.

I have tried btf ortho sps and then 837 1.0 lp on the fh. But ultimately both of them had control problems. On my Mat.P blade the ortho was just too fast in terms of recoil, couldnt really control the direction. The 837 1.0 gave a little more control. I could counter hit, chop, and block like I was using inverted but it was hard to use when reaching out for a fh chop...just too many control problems...sometimes it would go long and sometimes it was hard to slice a high bouncing ball without poping it up ...

I have also tried using ox lps on both sides of an off- blade...that was pretty good at the table for returns and blocks, quick hits using a slap stroke, good for a disruptive game at table...however on the fh side far back behind the table, i found that a little more speed was needed than the ox lp could give that I was using. I got lots of short balls with this setup and I liked the feel.

Well know for the main event: my new invention for pushblocking= tsp p3a oxlp + 802 1.5 + bomb 729 blade. I'm honestly tell you that the bomb feels great and blocks very short with p3a ox lp. And on the bomb, my new sheet of 802 1.5 sponge delivers a great control chop on the fh side. Even when on the dead run and stretching out, the 802 puts the ball back on the table....

Also the 802 is preetty spinny and good quality when serving. sleeping on the keyboard again sorry

Just one last thing before I finally shut down for tonight, what ever pimples you choose on the fh side, it is a superior advantage when returning because of the option to go fh and bh with pips...just makes it way easier to get the ball back.

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A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!

Hard to have better discussion than some of the good posts above.

For me if you want to defend off the table then you must have inverted on one side. SP are very ineffective for any topspin stroke (lob, fishing, counter looping) off the table compared to inverted. If you want to play close to the table then SP/LP is a very legitimate option. One thing I disagree with is that SP makes it easier to return serves. Maybe for others but not for me!

I'm currently playing LP/SP. The thinking behind this was as follows:

- I'm more familiar with SP hitting that inverted looping/driving, because I played double SP for the previous year - for a weak ball I am more likely to hit than loop/drive
- I quite like being able to block close to the table to mix up the rhythm
- I feel I have pretty good control for placement with SP

Having been playing this way for a few weeks, the main challenge I'm experiencing is in the FH chop. When it doesn't work, it's usually for one of two reasons:

1) I'm not getting enough spin on the chop, which makes my chopped return a fairly high, not very spinny shot which is fairly easy to hit away
2) Against strong loopers, I struggle to get the 2nd chop on the table - often hitting it long - this suggests I'm not able to overcome the spin

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Yasaka Sweden Classic | 802 OX | C8 OX
Check out my blog - LordCope's Latest Learning Log - 10+ years of accumulate mistakes!

It is very hard to chop with SP on either side, so I agree with Kees and dwruck. Not impossible, but very difficult. The LP/SP combination is mainly for close in. I would very much recommend learning to chop with inverted. It will give you much more variability, ultimately has much more margin for error, and will, in the fullness of time, offer much greater attack possibilities (for change of pace), and more importantly, allow you to play much more effectively away from the table. You will be able to lob as well as chop in ways that are extremely difficult with SP.

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Butterfly Viscaria Black tag
2.2 mm Nexy Karis M on FH and BH