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Discussion on pushing
https://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=21426		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Oskar [ 06 Dec 2012, 16:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
Fair enough, carbonman. However, I did think they were appropriate to a thread called 'Discussion on pushing'. Yes, I can see that the discussion has become more focused on advanced pushing, but I just thought people interested in the topic might find those videos interesting.

I always think that advanced techniques naturally grow from basic ones (I know it's obvious). As you've suggested, a big factor in successfully pushing a ball is that in-out footwork. I would also add that it's important to get your body behind the ball. I know this can't always happen, like those hard-to-reach short backspin balls to your forehand that you just manage to push back with your forehand.
Author:  apophis [ 06 Dec 2012, 16:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
I find that pushing is a skill that is not as focused on as it probably should be. I know that when I train, its hard to find someone to do this drill with.

The short push is one of the better defensive service returns to stop a 3rd ball attack in most club based games that I've been part of previously and recently. I was always taught to 'push' the bat towards the net when doing the stroke.... but after my break from TT and getting back into it last season, I found my touch was severely lacking causing me to pop the ball up or net it. Its better now as I use the the training partner to practice his backspin serve and I drill short pushing returns, still, I find that its such a weakness in my game at the moment that it gifts my opponents with cheap points as I shovel the ball high or into the net.
Author:  carbonman [ 06 Dec 2012, 16:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
Sorry Oskar, I was just making sure one wasn't confused with the other. Yes. those clips are excellent and I agree that the advanced techniques grow out of the basic one's. Pushing is a funny one in that the stroke really gets pared down as you improve.
Author:  Oskar [ 06 Dec 2012, 17:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
carbonman wrote:
... the stroke really gets pared down as you improve.


I've suspected this for a long time. All the evidence is there from watching elite-level matches to seeing how people play at different club levels. What I've seen as I've progressed in my own game is how at the lower levels (Division B, A4 and A3) pushing can still be employed to win games. In fact, at the lower end, like B-grade, most games end up being pushing rallies forcing errors. It doesn't bother me as it just seems like a fact of life for that level of play. Also, I've seen many players who continue this pushing game never progress to other divisions. The positive in this, of course, is how good a training ground these pushing-divisions become.

I suspect that if I'm invited into the A2 division next season I'll be forced to shed much of my defensive attitude. This is something I'm definitely looking forward to, because I've gradually moved farther away from pushing, pushing and more endless pushing. I know now that I am capable of winning points with solid forehand drives/smashes/loops and my very, very handy backhand smack-a-roo! I've also identified that I need a really good short serve, but I'll work on it over summer.

Admittedly, pushing still happens if I tighten up and find myself fighting for survival, but there is hope ... :rock:
Author:  THE GAMEr [ 07 Dec 2012, 07:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
so not much wrist action is used in a push, is there?

And yes, pingskills is great, and that video is great. this thread IS more about advanced pushing, BUT sometimes it's good to see the basics again.
Author:  Retriever [ 07 Dec 2012, 12:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
I disagree about lack of wrist action in the push. Of course I have also had someone tell me that what I call a push is really a chop.

A number of years ago I ended up getting pain in the wrist which ended up being something like RSI from the extra little (!) bit of wrist I put into pushing, and was given specific exercises to make it go away. I still put wrist into it. Not so many straight pushing rallies these days of course.
Author:  hookshot [ 07 Dec 2012, 13:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
In China, a high % of my time getting coaching was spent on pushing. They teach two seperate pushes. One is right off the bounce. This is for a short push with lots of spin. The sooner after the bounce, the more spin. The other, push at the top of the arc. This HAS to be a Fast push and long. Spin can be varried with more or less wrist. If you push from the top of the arc, you MUST push long or they get a free cookie. :)
Author:  carbonman [ 07 Dec 2012, 13:16 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
Good post hookshot - it sums things up nicely.
Author:  haggisv [ 07 Dec 2012, 19:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
hookshot wrote:
One is right off the bounce. This is for a short push with lots of spin. The sooner after the bounce, the more spin.

Why do you get more spin, the sooner after the bounce?
Author:  so_devo [ 07 Dec 2012, 20:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
haggisv wrote:
hookshot wrote:
One is right off the bounce. This is for a short push with lots of spin. The sooner after the bounce, the more spin.

Why do you get more spin, the sooner after the bounce?


A very good question and one I have wondered about but I can verify that it is correct, I introduced this shot some while ago after reading one of Hookshot's posts. It certainly works, whether it is the fact that it is taken early or whether you play a slightly different stroke to be able to take it early I don't know.

However. Consider this. If you block (with inverted) off the bounce you get more topspin than taking the ball later. With pips more reversal.

Connected facts?
Author:  Retriever [ 09 Dec 2012, 07:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
I think you get more spin because the ball is moving faster straight after the bounce. I use this to my advantage, I can make what looks like (and is) exactly the same shot from what looks like exactly the same ball fed to me, but it depends how soon after the bounce I hit it as to how much spin there is. For those opponents not paying attention to this aspect, it can be quite surprising.
Author:  hookshot [ 09 Dec 2012, 08:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
Right after the bounce, the ball is comming UP at a steep angle making a thinner contact. Later on it would make a thicker contact. :)

Think,,,brush loop in reverse.
Author:  THE GAMEr [ 10 Dec 2012, 13:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
hookshot wrote:
Right after the bounce, the ball is comming UP at a steep angle making a thinner contact. Later on it would make a thicker contact. :)

Think,,,brush loop in reverse.



This makes sense. I was thinking that if it was true, it would have to do the angle of the ball against the racket.

I guess I'm gonna have to force myself to push rigth after the bounce next tuesday....
Author:  hookshot [ 10 Dec 2012, 14:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
Have someone watch your pushes to see when you are actually making contact. It is VERY hard to make contact "right off the bounce". It might "feel" like you are taking it off the bounce but you need an observer to really tell. Like two or three inches after the bounce. The stroke will be ONLY two or three inches long, in line with the direction you want it to go,. The bat will be VERY close to the table. Here is a good tip, "Let the bat do the work". If done right after the bounce, there is no room to add any chop with the wrist. You will get plenty of backspin with no wrist if taken right off the bounce. Another tip, get the bat in front of the ball BEFORE contact. (Footwork) Try NOT to reach, move in front of the ball.
My coach probably spent 15% of my time on this shot. On short chop serves or pushes, you NEED this shot! Another option is a banana flip which I am still working on. :)
Author:  THE GAMEr [ 11 Dec 2012, 14:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Discussion on pushing
hookshot wrote:
Have someone watch your pushes to see when you are actually making contact. It is VERY hard to make contact "right off the bounce". It might "feel" like you are taking it off the bounce but you need an observer to really tell. Like two or three inches after the bounce. The stroke will be ONLY two or three inches long, in line with the direction you want it to go,. The bat will be VERY close to the table. Here is a good tip, "Let the bat do the work". If done right after the bounce, there is no room to add any chop with the wrist. You will get plenty of backspin with no wrist if taken right off the bounce. Another tip, get the bat in front of the ball BEFORE contact. (Footwork) Try NOT to reach, move in front of the ball.
My coach probably spent 15% of my time on this shot. On short chop serves or pushes, you NEED this shot! Another option is a banana flip which I am still working on. :)


I shall try this....thanks.

And thank you all for the input!

A question for the LPers: how different is pushing with LP than with inverted?
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