OOAK Table Tennis Forum

I have been interested in defending with SP and I bought TSP Super SpinPips (SSP) with chop sponge 2, the same soft sponge as my TSP Curl P-4 has. I noticed that it was very difficult to generate back spin with SP if I used the same chopping stroke as with LP (I have only been testing this SP for an hour or so yet). I felt got much more back spin from pushing over the table or chopping slow and low spin loops. I wondered if this is how it should be with SP and started to study Muramatsu, Wang Yang and Hou Yingchao. I realized that both Wang and Muramatsu most of the time chops with almost a LP-chopping-stroke and they seem to generate very little back spin on most of their chops. This makes it actually very difficult for opponents to make short and low drop shots. But those who can read the spin and don't hesitate can smash through the spin easily.

Here is Wang decieving Fulda's Robert Svensson (who of course practice a lot with LP defender Wang Xi):
ttbl.de/07-10-12-frickenhausen-vs-fulda-1-einzel
The first sets Svensson is in charge, but then Wang starts to mix no spin with back spin (and his FH chops works better). Robert do not have the self confidence to hit through low spin chops.

Here Chuang is hitting hard to Wang's body, but those points where Wang is in position for chopping e often wins the point (Chuang is not good at reading spin but he has a blistering attack and moves very well):
http://tv.ttbl.de/29-12-12-liebherr-pok ... n-4-einzel

Hou on the other hand has a chopping stroke that is more like Ding Songs short and swift (have a look at the match Ding Song vs Johnny Huang:


It seems like he often chops back a no spin ball, but sometimes he makes back spin. But his stroke is very differenet from Muramatsus.
Hou, like I said, uses a stroke that looks like ding Song's, but it looks like he uses more back spin and a lot more side spin than most of the others. Here is a short clip from him training with someone below his level:


Here is a great game from Hou recently when he beats Boll (his is the reason I got interested in trying SP):


And this is perhaps even more impressive when i totally pulverizes Patrick Baum:


Ding Song usually kept his chops low, as well as Muramatsu does. But Hou and Wang Yang tend to chop a little high. I am not sure that high chops is all bad as long as they stay long. It seems like the ability to deceive is what makes these players win, and most of them win lots of points from running back to the table and smashing a high drop shot, often with the BH. It seems they get these opportunitys a little more ofthen than LP defenders, like Wang Xi, Joo Se Hyuk and Ruwen Filus (but he twiddles a lot and loops/smashes with inverted on his BH, which gives him a few more potetial attacking balls to work with).

Is chopping with little back spin most of the time and lots of back spin sometimes the normal pattern for SP defenders?
For LP defenders it is mostly the other way around, I think, since it is difficult to make a low spin chop with LP if your opponent is using lots of spin.

What is your thoughts on this?

If I chose to go with SP (If I do, I do it in three moths), should I aim at making most of my chops low spin and sometimes with lot's of back spin? Here is a thread concerning above mentioned ruber (the one Muramatsu uses): viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21005 In that thread is a few more thoughts about this. And there is also this short clip of me trying SP for two sets (and then returning to LP for the last set):

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i truly think that the only reason these players have completely different looking stroke is not because of the rubber, but because they have been playing 9 hours a day for 20 plus years! they tend to develop your own stroke in that time.

the stroke for long pips and short pips is very similar...very.....the only differences is with short pips you require an adjustment almost every single loop, but aesthetically speaking....they look basically the same....if you gave ding song long pips, his chop would look the same...

the 90's chinese choppers all modeled their games after chen xinhua ( who plays with lp) - hence the short strokes....

they are also very very different game styles.

hou changes his chop almost every single shot, while ding song lets his opponents get used to one spin and then change it to no spin

good players know when a ball is changed to no spin, but the quick mental change to your body is more difficult in itself then simply recognizing the no spin.

i have met the coach of wang yang and he says that wang only chops with short pips so when his opponent pushes, he can push spin and no spin and stay closer to the table to unleash his forehand on the next shot.

i think the reason it appears that people hammer though yutos chops is because you study joo and chen who have LEGENDARY backspin on their chops....

compare him to ruwen, people hammer though his chops too....

yuto is also physically not fully developed yet and cant put all that power needed to develop tons of short pip spin....

however the normal pattern for short pip choppers is lots with tons of spin...and one with no spin....

one huge adjust is much more difficult then a bunch of small ones.


before worrying about short pips chopping or long pips chopping, you should be able to be very consistant with the basic spin chop....otherwise manipulating it is pointless...

if you come to the conclusion that with long pips you stay in the rally longer, but short pips your opponent misses faster, then the question shouldn't be which rubber should i use....the question would be how can i make myself stay in the rally with short pips, or how can i make my opponent miss more with long pips....

consistency trumps ALL!!!

Well to me defending with SP is much more difficult compared to LP. Guess it does not make a huge difference when you practice a lot, but for a normal low-level player like me SP defending is way too demanding in terms of consistency. Though this is also not surprising, since I am used to LP chopping now.

That is why I stick to LP and rather work on my short-game.

Thanks alot Leatherback (I was hoping for you o answer this one, since there are not many members here that have done the same journey as you have).
That was a very insightful answer, I was not aware of that Chen was the model also for Ding Song, but that explains a lot.
The main reason for me turning to SP is attacking oppurtunitys and being able to generate more back spin on pushes. But these things can be fixed by twiddeling. Perhaps I should just practice twiddeling. I can do it technically but my head does not seem to send the signals to my arm in time or at the right moments .
I am aware that changing to SP would probably ruin my consistency a bit... Still it is very tempting... I am also aware that this is a normal reaction for me after loosing a few matches that I should not have lost . I changed to a fresh P-4 and that felt a lot better, my chops got spinny again....

Still I find it odd that almost no one dumps the ball to the net when making a drop shot from one of Muramatsu's or Wang Yang's chops...

Leatherback, I remember you talking about chopping with SP and how easy it was to make no spin chops comparing to with LP. Now that you have had even more time to adapt, is this still how you win your points (by shopping no spin and then returnign to the table for an attack)? Do you still win points from people looping into the net after a few chops? Do you attack with your pips?

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Have you tried Spinpips Chop sponge 2? It is a lot easier than for example 802-1 with a soft 1,5 mm sponge that I first tried with. But then again, some SP-benefits are lost with that soft and slow sponge...

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Actually I did, but I used it for one practice session only. Basically I was not really able to control whether I generate a lot of spin or no spin, it just happend by itself

Being in the middle of the season I switched back to LP again. Btw., your P4 is perfect for attacking in my oppinion, also played it and I was suprised how easy it was to attack nearly any incoming ball.

I can se myself in the same position, I had no idea weather or not I managed to generate spin or not. On the other hand, if don't know, how should my oponent have any clue
You are right about P-4, it is very easy to attack with by the attacks are also kind of harmless. Most people just attacks back. But if I manage to hit with stiff wrist and with a thick hit I can produce a sinker that most people misses. It is also nice to BH-loop with it. The first time I do that my opponent usually just stand still and stare at the ball like it was on fire or something. No one expects that stroke from a LP-rubber . But the second or third time they just atacks back...

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the most points i win actually are on the first chop i make off the serve.....if the serve long to my backhand i would say that 80% of the first loops are netted.

i find that simply chopping and putting more balls on the table then your opponent is MUCH more effective with short pips.....MUCH more...

however you have to be in complete control....with long pips, the rally could get away from you a bit and you can still pull of very good chops forcing your opponent to slow down and let you back in the game.

with short pips you have to be in complete control and then your no spins have effect....otherwise they just get smacked past you....

with short pips you also get LOTS more pop ups at the nets so i do attack high balls with the running in smack....

but as far as attacking topspin with the pips....rarely, and only as a change, maybe at 8-8 or 9-9 when they think they have my game figured out i throw it in to keep them thinking...

but the same strategy applies to me with long pips

As far as I can tell. If LP makes 100% backspin against loop. Inverted is 95% and sp about 85%. Against loop lp is simple to use. Sp and inverted are more difficult. SP not much more but a little.

Making own spin it seems inverted 100%, lp 85% and sp 80%, the big deal is that sp isn't as fussy with blade angle as lp is so more often it makes more spin.

Of course disturbance is a major factor in lp and really the only reason it has any advantage anytime over sp. So that's where you have to make your decision. If disturbance enhances and sets up the rest of your game then its worth using lp. I think if you are playing an around game that includes a decent amount of chopping you can't go past a thin sponged sp.

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Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm

leatherback, Are you using the regular TSP Super Spinpips or one of the softer "chop" sponges?

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Blade: Victas Koji Matsushita FL
FH: Xiom Vega Japan Max
BH: TSP P1-R 1.0mm
USATT Rating: 2013

i would have to respectfully disagree here...it depends how hard you chop...if you chop faster then the spin on the ball...inverted makes more spin....then shortpips, then long pips....so the phrase chop against loop is irrelevant

if you are applying your own spin to a dead ball short pips will apply more then LP everytime.

I agree with Leatherback. However, there is another aspect concerning lp. You bend the pips when chopping and if the pips and bat in general suits your chopping style there will be an addition in spin from the pips arising again. I think this is why DTecS with sponge can produce lots of back spin without being very grippy.

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My 2 cents are that inverted chopping produces more underspin than any pips (on normal/low speed loops) and at the same time produces better floaters, its just a matter of technique and ball feeling. Biggest problem with inverted chopping is that there is way more risk to make a mistake yourself or to return a ball that is too high.

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Setups (click on writings to read reviews):
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2) Defence II / Joola Octopus (0,5) / M3 (2,0)
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+ 2 cents

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Well in my case 388d1 makes more own spin against a dead ball than 802. I can't explain why, it just does. The bending of the pips just seems to make more surface area and more grip than is possible with a chopping short pip.

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Donic defplay senso
Haifu whale soft (grips-euro)
Nittaku pimplemini 1.0mm