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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2013, 11:57 
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Big discussion last night at my club with a couple of coaches and some pretty experienced players.

They raised with me that Playing with long pips at the table (and even chopping) as a style is going to dwindle UNLESS long pip players develop a keen long pip attack.

They pointed out that the hit/fast roll against backspin is one of the most under utilized shots in the game - both as a return of serve and as a legitimate third ball attack.

If this "Topspin" attack were more developed and coached - because at current very few players are adopting it, do you think it could potentially re-invigorate the style and create more interest as well as a bigger dimension to our game?

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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2013, 17:45 
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I would certainly agree it can be quite a weapon, certainly viable up the high club levels, but perhaps you need more beyond that.

I also think that it's not this type of attack that's causing the style to dwindle...it just doesn't seem as cool a style, and there is still a perception out there that poeple use it just to cover a weakness or those using it are 'cheating'. on the other hand, I'd love to get some coaching on this shot, and I think it would certainly help to get more people to try it.

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PostPosted: 19 Jul 2013, 18:30 
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Here I am also totally agree. In my club in Denmark we have a robot "Donic Robopong 2050" and now for some time trained attacks and openings with my LP backhand and it has already has great effect on my game since I now also have got surprise attacks in my backhand and LP, mind before going where I like to put the game up to loop attack with my forehand. :up:

So clearly that my game has now become even more toxic and more surprisingly, it is certainly the experience also with my training partners. :devil:

Have now got a whole new tactical dimension to the game :D

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 14:41 
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Performing a bit of necromancy here guys but I'd be interested to hear a few thoughts on what you all think the future of this style is? Changed a bit since 3-4 years ago?

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 15:01 
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Hi SHFS!

I have found in the last few seasons the grade I play at my club has gotten stronger and stronger. In part it is due to rising talent, but mainly its due to strong players returning at the top grade and pushing some of the strong players down. On top of this I find certain players get used to the "LP at the table" game and start to overcome me. As a result I've found my win percentages slipping. Attacking with LP can certainly assist with keeping you competitive, but in the most part an attack with LP, especially if its Ox is rather like a weak inverted attack in a lot of cases. If you can get the opponent out of position and hit an attack to finish the point, great! But otherwise I find my LP attack "loops" to come back three times as fast. I find the biggest weapon of LP is still the angles you can create unexpectedly.If you can do these with a fast push they can be more effective than an LP attack (well they are an attack themselves really). Reversal from LP only gets you so far in this game, and at higher skill level it not only doesn't bother opponents, they relish looping the backspin. And those that don't, simply do a lift push whenever they feel the spin is too much.

The LP game has a future IMO, but the higher up you go, the trickier you have to get. Haggisv has a very tricky chicken-wing flip off the pips that he takes you unawares with :devil:

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 16:11 
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I don't either think that spin reversal is the answer, by dynamics in germs of speed and placement might be it. When I look at 18 year old Frictionless anti-player of Luxembourg Ademir Balaban in this game, it is clear that he uses a fast tempo with many twiddles and direction changes to get his opponent off balance. After a couple of sets his opponent is more adapted to the game and you can see clear patterns, but still he finds no way out of Ademirs chains, he is trapped. A very interesting and modern way to use a less grippy rubber. Notice how Ademir turns his bat almost upside down to be able to use FH rubber on BH side without twiddeling:

http://youtu.be/1gCl5Y0L6eg

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 16:13 
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I don't either think that spin reversal is the answer, by dynamics in germs of speed and placement might be it. When I look at 18 year old Frictionless anti-player of Luxembourg Ademir Balaban in this game, it is clear that he uses a fast tempo with many twiddles and direction changes to get his opponent off balance. After a couple of sets his opponent is more adapted to the game and you can see clear patterns, but still he finds no way out of Ademirs chains, he is trapped. A very interesting and modern way to use a less grippy rubber. Notice how Ademir turns his bat almost upside down to be able to use FH rubber on BH side without twiddeling:

http://youtu.be/1gCl5Y0L6eg

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 18:26 
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I currently playing LP FH (PH) with 2.0mm sponge under it. I'm not sure if it's over 4.0mm, as the rules required, but I think attacking with LPs can be a new if not better way to play with LPs. What I observed is that with 2.0mm sponge, I can attack occasional away-from-the-table moments. Unlike with 1.0mm and OX which lacks power at that distance which forces me to lob or chop the ball. Another thing is looping is way easier with 2.0mm sponge, with this I can shift my game from flat hits to loops without twiddling the bat, and that saves me precious time reaction time. I still have inverted rubbers on my RPB but just to add more variant to the game.

What I'm trying to say is maybe offensive LP game can be a new style to reborn the LP game in table tennis. Maybe some tweak in the rule book can change the fate of LPs. Or maybe some development in the market, as most of LPs are designed for defense, maybe add some variant for offense oriented LP.

BTW. I'm using Dr. Neubauer Viper Soft with 2.0mm 729 HRS sponge underneath.


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 21:05 
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I'm thinking that IF you learn to twiddle and can attack AND block with both long pips AND inverted on either side, you'd be quite someone to reckon with.. :lol: I haven't noticed any twiddlers at the top world-class levels, though. Must be very difficult to do.

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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 22:18 
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I used to try twiddling but the constant problem I get is the loss of reaction time when twiddling. It takes time to adjust and readjust the blade which for me is vital reaction time. That's also the reason why I think there's no twiddler in the pros because of the pace of the game they play.


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PostPosted: 19 Apr 2017, 23:03 
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iskandar taib wrote:
I'm thinking that IF you learn to twiddle and can attack AND block with both long pips AND inverted on either side, you'd be quite someone to reckon with.. :lol: I haven't noticed any twiddlers at the top world-class levels, though. Must be very difficult to do.

Iskandar


Twiddling at pro-level would be a massive weakness as genre pointed out. The opponent would be make life hell with speedy attacks such that it would be difficult to get a foothold on using the twiddle to confuse them, without being confused first yourself.

At the grassroots level twiddling is hard enough, especially if there is a major difference in the action and power of the rubbers. I have one friend who is proficient, but he uses anti on one side that while being a bit slower than his regular rubber the difference is not so stark as say Tenergy vs, Ox LP. I have been doing some practicing lately in twiddling in the rally and have managed to pull off some great BH's with the inverted, but they are few and far between and I'd never try it at this point in a match. I have always twiddled off serve, but I find most players watch the rubber colours very carefully as they know how crucial mistaking that can be. I know I have to do this when I play my twiddling mate too. And it actually isn't as hard as you might think to track what ball you'll get from the twiddle if you focus well. If you stop thinking and watching, you'll be in trouble easily. But good players don't do that...and paradoxically, it may actually enforce increased focus by your opponent.

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 08:02 
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As I said, it must be difficult or they'd be doing it. :lol: It's not just the deception that twiddling gets you, it's the ability to attack AND defend on both sides with the optimal tools for attack and defense. NOT twiddling leaves you with a predictable weakness on one side in some situations (especially with serve returns). As for the time it takes to twiddle - you've seen Carl Prean do it, right? :lol: That was true power-twiddling.

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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 10:27 
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iskandar taib wrote:
It's not just the deception that twiddling gets you, it's the ability to attack AND defend on both sides with the optimal tools for attack and defense. NOT twiddling leaves you with a predictable weakness on one side in some situations (especially with serve returns).
Iskandar


This is why, unlike (common) twiddlers, I play with LP on my FH. As a penholder this is an advantage as I can defend with TPB on BH side and attack with RPB. While on the FH I can defend by soft blocking and and attack with hitting through the ball (also with the occasional looping), hence I suggested to have LPs in the market with thick sponges to add variety to the LP game (the only one I know of is the Aggressor). I based my style, though I'm still on the trial and error phase, on this CNT woman I saw on youtube with LP on FH and SP on BH. But unlike her I tried to tweak the style by attacking (hitting) on FH as the go-to-shot rather mostly just chop blocking. On the RPB side I tried used Inverted rather than SP to have a variety of shots when returning serves. I can either push with my LP or flick with my RPB to initiate attack.

Anyway that's the style I'm going for. As for LPs, I really hope we see more variety in the market like in the inverted section. And coaches should not play safe by just teaching two-wing looper style. I think they should also gamble on their players by experimenting on different styles which includes LPs and other rubbers not just inverted.


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PostPosted: 20 Apr 2017, 19:05 
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How thick is LP topsheet? If you make the sponge too thick you run into the 4mm limit. Not sure what can be accommodated. Not too hard to make your own, by the way.

Iskandar


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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2017, 10:06 
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iskandar taib wrote:
How thick is LP topsheet? If you make the sponge too thick you run into the 4mm limit. Not sure what can be accommodated. Not too hard to make your own, by the way.

Iskandar


I haven't measure mine. but by the looks of it around 2.0mm with the nibs included (as it is just a little bit thinner than my inverted rubber which with 1.8mm sponge) and I added 2.0mm sponge . Making one yourself isn't really that hard but marketability wise it's much more inviting to buy a ready made one. But the problem with that is there's very few options.


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