OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hope this is a good post and not a bad post, in light of recent posts

I have been playing doubles almost every Mon and Fri for the last 4 years...through rain or shine!

And I have had the distinction of being the only player to use long pips while the other three players used mostly inverted. Two of these guys used short pips on the backside of their penhold blades but very rarely used them at the onset but now after 4 years they are twiddling even more (Iwonder why?).

Anyways, the premise of this post is the effectiveness of the long pips in a doubles context and for me, I have found that over 4 years, with this same cast of characters, that it has worked to my disadvantage if playing a pushblocking type game without any fh attack. To explain this result, all I have to say is that the effects of a slower struck ball from the long pips is more than overcome by the awaiting second opponent who is poised to rip back a lp push or chop. I find that this predictament, amongst other scenerios, is often the norm. And after 4 years of serve receive with my long pips, I find myself now scrambling to mix up the return because the other guy knows whats coming.

In contrast I have found that playing LP defence against two opponents, that is a doubles team on the other side of the table against yours truly, is much easier to deal with especially if they are an attacking dual. The fact that you are playing singles against doubles means you do not need to coordinate saving yourself valuable nanoseconds of time. And as a defender who chops and blocks you are ready to make a quick defensive shot intuitively almost a stroke ahead of the doubles pair. Everything said here has been my experience and my opponents are more or less in my skill level.

So, going back to the main point, what has been your experience with the effectiveness of lps in a game of doubles? Good , bad so-so?

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A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!

Definitely a "good post" in my book!

I think using LP in doubles is good/bad depending on your opposition and your partner.
Obviously, if you are playing opponents who are not used to playing LPs, you can get a lot of pop-ups for your partner. Also, you really need a partner who either uses LP him/herself or who is very good at handling heavy topspin. For a long time I had a regular doubles partner and we enjoyed a lot of success together. After I changed to LP, we continued to have success against weaker opponents but we really were at a loss against strong opponents. This was because, as a LP player, I generally pushed long as my opening stroke. This worked fine in singles because I WANTED the opponent to do a heavy topspin opening loop that I could chop back. In doubles, suddenly my partner was having to deal with a heavy topspin loop that he was unable to handle. However, some double inverted players enjoy counterlooping heavy topspin - in which case they would make a potent doubles combination with a LP player.

I think it's no accident that at the elite levels, you almost always see LP players playing doubles together. It's just very demanding on a double inverted player to be constantly under attack because he has a LP partner.

At a local club level, if you use LP more for hitting, rolling and blocking, it can be pretty effective in doubles (once again, depending on the level of opposition).

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You could try twiddling and use the tackc for one return then the pips but keep varying it and leave the twiddle as long as possible to confuse, you will have plenty of time to twiddle back whilst your teammate is playing his shot

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I've played doubles with a lot of different partners and very rarely has my pairing been uncompetitive. I have paired with a lot of double inverted players and usually take the passive/safer role and allow the other person to be the attacker if they are around my level. That doesn't mean I don't attack where the right opportunity presents, it just means I am constantly trying to set my partner up with an attackable return. I get partners a lot of pop-ups, even against players of higher standing. I have won 3 doubles titles this year at tournaments (2 division 2 and 1 division 3) with 3 different partners (2 who I'd not played doubles with before) , all dual inverted and have continually been the constant player in league, winning many, many matches. And I bring a lot of that success down to the use of LP. It doesn't always give opponents trouble, but I usually manage to get my partner kill shots. It usually then comes down to whether they land the kills shots as to whether we win.

I would attribute the key to succeeding in doubles as an LP playing component being inventive and consistent with my shots. That means either playing unexpected angles to places where the receiver isn't, so they are stretching if they reach the shot. That, and sending back balls that are aimed at upsetting players timing. The number of times my partner has thought they were going to have a kill shot landed on them, only to find the opponents smash or loop go long...or maybe in the net. And usually I am sitting waiting to see that the result I was aiming for was achieved. Yeah, sometimes an opponent will make a correct adjustment or I won't have made my shot potent enough and it will get killed. But that happens rarely, and some partners have made hay from it anyway, with a great block that screws up their kill, and turns it back to our win. Same thing often occurs when my partner gives them a setup and I block. With the Pips, the block can go back spinning in a way and with such speed that it doesn't come back. And then there is the blocks I love from a drive to my FH, that I gobble up back past the hitter before the next receiver has a chance to move.

Of course, when you come up against a team that is simply either of a much higher level, or is totally in tune with the play, including the LP, then it can fall apart. But you can't win them all. So long as your partner gets an idea of what will come back after you have hit it, then its workable. At the level I play, I usually find they can. However, I must admit when I played at lower levels years back, the partners struggled with understanding how my play was going to affect them and what they would get back, and need to do. If you are at this stage in things, then you have to try to educate your partner so your game works for you and not against.

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Thank you Reb and poor_knight!

Both of you nailed it on the head but said it in different ways. That is, it's all about "What comes back" and being able to handle the spin thus establishing the need to educate the partner that I have at the moment and we switch pairs every match.

within our little foursome there is an hiearchy or pecking order and I find I almost always win with the better players and almost always lose with the worst player just like both of you have implied or suggested. So skill and level do play a bigger role in the dynamics of doubles.

I can also say that although LP's predictability has worked against me on many occasions that it probably has brought more wins overall as it had a bigger effect earlier on years ago, only to have the other guys make adjustments, which would then buy them a few more points against me, and then I would be forced to make adjustments and so so and so on...AND THAT BROUGHT ME TO OOAK!

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A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!

Good topic!

I've always found it to be an advantage for me, although at higher level you really need to pick the spin well so that that you can play the most effective shots. You can be quite aggressive with the LPs against the right balls.
Of course you always have the option of twiddling as well, and if you do this regularly and keep the bat under the table before they serve, you'll keep them guessing.

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Thanks haggisv!

Yes I learned a lot about attacking backspin balls when returning, here on OOAK!
The LP returns off their serves drove them nuts at the beginning and then they started to get use to the effects...I countered by buying more blades and lp's and I think that confused them again

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A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!

I twiddle, push and attack with both LP and inverted with good placement making it difficult for the opposition to get their attack in. It works well at my level and is quite effective against higher level players too

For me having LP on one side is a HUGE plus in doubles, particularly if everyone else is double inverted. I however never play a pushblocking style with my LP in doubles. I have time to use my inverted (almost exclusively for attacking) but have time to chop a return or use in serve return. If I did not attack I can see how it could hurt me, but really it is a big help against all levels of opponents.

9 years of LP experience??? I can't imagine going back to inverted on both sides. Nice to see your signature includes a chopping blade again.

And yes I fully agree about the FH aspect of LP doubles play.For the record I do have a competent fh but keep it inside a closet. Just lately it seems like my gang of four is starting to play me tighter so i wrote this post...

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A big bag full of blades and long pimples, donuts and coffee!