OOAK Table Tennis Forum

the opposite of coaching
I'm currently in a two man team out West Auckland, and I have a young left handed player (i wouldn't call him a two winged looper) but he will try and attck more than any thing else, allthough he will block some as well, he has fairly weak but consistant serves, and will tend to loose clutch games or give away leads more often than not
he tends to always get coached from his father (a good level player) and now me because we are two person team,

I find that when I give him advice like " don't keep missing the op chop serve "just lift it up so you are in the rally' or "stop serving to the same place as the op is now attacking all you serves" he tends to almost do the opposite and/or play worse

anyway this week before he played a point I said "today you will get no coaching, no advice , you will just have to play like a adult"
first game he plays well and is leading 3-1 in games against one of the better players but the op is comes back and gets it to 3-3 and the op is leading 8-4, then somehow the youngster comes back again and wins it 12-10, he was rapt and then he had to also fill in on another team as well. anyhow he goes and beats another (better younster) who always beats my teammate, lefty got back to 3-3 and the was behind 6-2 in the last and turned around and won 11-9
next game he won at our table again playing well against someone who usually beats him , then we won the doubles for our first time win in the third week of our comp (I won my two singles as well) so a 5-0 win
and Im unsure of how my teammate went in his other fill in games ) but he just played very good and beat two players who will usually beat him and one older player who has never beaten.

so was it a fluke?
do peple remember words like if a police man says "don't move" , the person will move?
(thats why the police say "FREEZE!!!") as no conflict of words, if I said stop returning balls into the net did that make him return balls to the net? who knows although I never really gave him too much advice only usually trying to fix contant mistakes, but his father tends to talk to him for longer... the younster maybe would have won at most 3 games out of 18 in the last round of interclub but on this night he collected that and maybe more in one night

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Blade Ulmo Duality| FH Tibhar mx-p Black, Dawei 388D-1 red OX
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interesting comparison rodderz, food for thought there - like when you are learning to ride a motorbike, you are told not to look at the item on the road that you are trying to avoid, otherwise you will head straight for it!

I think you have nailed it yourself. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean that your previous coaching didn't work. More likely, it is all about timing...

In a match, the mindset is quite focused ; you have your blinders on, as it were. In that situation, creativity and an open mind takes practice and experience. From my limited experience in coaching (and receiving coaching from teammates) I have drawn a conclusion: Match coaching should be about saying what the player is doing well, and/or what to do in a specific situation. Be explicit. General thoughts and analysis of weaknesses should wait until after the match (if you have a video, you can do it some other day).

Negating statements, saying what not to do, open up for a range of possible things to do, but does not provide any of those choices, and the focus is still on what he's been doing wrong. Two of the three examples you give are of that class. The one that says "just lift it..." is more specific "what to do", so easier for the player to handle in a match situation. Remember, if he is in a "no creativity mode", he may already have identified the problem that you point out, but is unable to think up a remedy for the problem. Having the cause pointed out does not automatically provide the solution.

So what happened when you said "..., no advice, ... play like an adult"?

I am guessing here:
The player respects you as a coach. When he knows that you are giving advice in a match situation, that reassurance initiates/amplifies the "no creativity mode". The suggestions about what not to do are not disregarded, but in that mode he can't do anything about them. They just sit there as "magic spells" in his mind, more or less. "No creativity mode" may develop into "zombie mode".
So, you took away all that. Before the matches start, before the blinders come on, you kicked him into "forced creativity mode".
Those old magic spells in the back of his mind come back, and suddenly they mean something. They are not reassuring, but rather disturbing. Disturbance is good. It makes you look for a way out of the situation. It makes you create.

Looks to me like that's what happened to you and your left hand.

Then again, it may have been a fluke.

Regardless of which it was, don't expect to be credited. The player in question will most likely be thinking that "I did this on my own, without support."
You know that you contributed. If you are like me, the evidence that "I mattered" is a sufficient reward (most of the time).

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Usually there is no coaching in our interclub matches we tend to let everyone fend for themselves, so some positive key words may have worked, have you ever had a sore toe, and you try not to bump it, what a;ways hppens next lol

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I would rather they think they acheived it themselves for their long term benifit , rather than wait for a new trigger to kick start this boy's game hehehe, he was the best kid in our area 2-3 years ago but a number of others zoomed past him, so hopefully it's a step in the right direction

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Another boy I playing against in a friendly game mabe two years ago, was always serving in the same place, so I put my bat down where his serve usually went, and he said "what are you doing" I said "well you always serve to the same place, Ill just leave my bat there" he went all upity and said "no I don't watch" and proceeded to serve well with some thought process, I know sometimes with boys a trick is to make it their idea lol..... anyhow he tends to beat me 80% of the time now but he has had lots of coaching but usually has no one on the sidelines helping him

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I agree that to coach you tell a player what to do, not what not to do.

Example-
"do not think about peanut butter"

so what are you thinking about now

I'm going to take a little stab at some backyard psychology here. Maybe what you're experiencing is a father-son disconnect. What I mean is that the poor boy has endured countless hours of coaching from his father and when you give him friendly advice part of his psyche reverts to that angst. Okay, I'm kind of making all of this up as I type, but it may just have some credibility. You see, the young lad doesn't want another father-coach, and even if that's not your intention, certain triggers go off for him. I think when you stepped back he was allowed to feel like an adult and you just became his team mate again, like a brother.

I reckon youngsters coached by a parent can be tricky at the best of times. There's that whole weight of being told this and that their whole life about virtually everything they do. It's really tough for a parent not to get enthusiastic and very involved in their son or daughters activities, especially if they share those passions.

Like I said, I'm guessing half this stuff and by all means do what comes naturally. I do suspect, however, that you're wise enough to know when to pull back and observe what might actually be going on, because you did post this topic.

I would suggest you let the little birdy try out his wings by himself for a while. Step in when you get that sideways glance from him asking for help. I agree that positive comments will help build a bridge of confidence that'll allow you back in with your friendly coaching tips.

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Interesting topic!

I tell my teammates, in advance, that I don't like being coached - or even spoken to - between ends.

I tell them that so they're not offended when I walk away from them and put my head in my towel.

The reason I avoid being spoken to is twofold. Firstly, my psychological balance is precarious at best - finding the right mindset is really tough and against slightly weaker opponents I find it far too easy to take my foot off the pedal.

Secondly, to date, I have been given zero useful advice by teammates and spectators. "Keep using your topspin serves to catch him out", after using one topspin serve in an entire end, is a personal favourite. The way I see it, not many people understand how to use pimples and those that do tend not to understand how to use my forehand! My game is "kinda" unique in my local league so I'm happy to just keep learning for myself and making mistakes.

Wow that sounds incredibly arrogant but I don't mean it that way!

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Dunc, I hear what you're saying. Ever since I changed to pips so many years ago I have had well intentioned people trying to tell me how to play with them when they've never even used pips themselves. They have no idea of how they work, yet they'll say "why don't you try doing this...?" (and some will even say "you must do this..."). I am happy to listen to someone who uses pips and try their advice. But even then it takes times to work out if you can do what they can do. But someone who simply THINKS they know, simply confirms they have less than no idea!

Back on the topic though, I was watching my teamy playing last night and we try to give each other advice in our matches between sets. He was playing this lobbing game which he sometimes goes into when under attack, but this time he was lobbing off the opponent serve and running straight back as far as he could go. He was playing a 19 year old girl who has a strong smash and she was blasting his lobs by him most the time. I suggested he play a different style as she was getting points handed to her, even though he was somehow just keeping his head above water and winning by 2 points in the first 2 sets. He said he was ok and then lost a set. He scraped in to be 3-1 up and kept doing what he was doing. She won another set, after he had a 6-2 lead, all from smashing his lobs. He should have been able to beat her 4-0. In the last set he lobbed less in the early stage and made a lead, then went back to lobbing and she gained back on him, but finally missed a couple of crucial smashes and he won it 4-2. I still have no idea why he played that way, as it was high risk and it wasn't like he was in full control. He also gave her so much confidence on her smashes, she came out smashing against me in the next match. I beat her 4-1, but had a tough time doing it...largely due to her getting her smashing eye very well in.

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I would say that 99% of my interclub life no one got advice/ gave advice and no one took time out, I think bringing a drink only came in 7-8 or so years ago

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Blade Ulmo Duality| FH Tibhar mx-p Black, Dawei 388D-1 red OX
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@ Reborn - it can be frustrating sometimes when the very nature of what it is to be a team just doesn't come together. Personally, I appreciate comments from team mates, because 1) they have a better, objective view of the game, and 2) I can always ignore it. We get placed into these teams at our club but very rarely do we get to know each other enough to talk tactics, talk about each other's game, etc. I really think we could all be better players if we got the most out of being in a team.

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Weapon 1: Andro Kinetic Supreme Hinoki/Zylon OFF-; Andro Hexer HDs (FH 2.1/BH 1.9)
Weapon 2: Ross Leidy 'Smokey'; Friendship 729-5s
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Club2: Ballarat - since 2011
Blog: A Naked Bear