OOAK Table Tennis Forum

Hi,

I was wondering when you should drive the ball versus when you should loop it.

More specifically, are there situations in which one of the two strokes is more appropriate?
For example, I can think of one scenario in which you need to loop:
1) When driving the ball would cause it to go long (off the table and therefore out).

I can also think of situations when you should drive the ball:
1) On smashes, since looping the ball may leave it in the air too long, allowing your opponent time to get back into position to return the ball.
2) Also, would it be correct that you should drive the ball in order to setup and gain control of the point ?


In addition, from a semantics standpoint, let's talk about the actual difference between a drive and a loop.
From what I know:
Loop = A drive with a longer stroke
Longer stroke: starting lower & brushing up higher on the ball;
Usually with a more closed racquet face, brushing up at about a 45° angle, getting yourself into the 90° / 90° position (having a 90° angle between your elbow and forearm and 90° under your armpit).

Also, is it correct that on a loop you graze the top of the ball whereas for a drive you hit through the center of the ball? Or do you also hit the top of the ball when you are driving it? I have heard both, but I am not sure which is correct from a technical standpoint.

~J.J.

Great post, interested in the answers.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

I'm glad that you like my questions! I am the type of player who is a student of the game, always wanting to learn everything I can so that I can get better.

I am just surprised that no one has answered the questions as of yet.
I would have thought that the answers would have been relatively simple.

Well, I'm sure someone will eventually be able to explain the differences between the drive and the loop and how to tactically use them.

~J.J.

I actually think that there is really no such thing as a drive. That is to say, what many call a drive I think is really either a loop with thickish contact (but still grazed) or a flat hit. Against backspin some 'drives' are actually scoops, in that the ball is contacted below the equator.

Like you JJ, I do a lot of reading and watching and like carbnman says (he knows his stuff) its all a bit subjective. Loop, topspin, loop drive, topspin drive, plenty of grey areas in there. For me a loop would indicate a finer contact with the ball but how fine? I've also plenty of times seen any type of topspin shot called a loop so perhaps depends on who you ask.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm

In my mind there are topspin shots, flat hits and underspin. Topspin is a continuum between a super spinny loop, loop drive and drive. There is no "magic" difference.

In regards of when to loop vs when to drive. If I have control of the table and my opponent is well off the table I prefer to "loop" more than drive so the ball drops to the floor before it gets to them. If I have control of a weak ball and my opponent is at the table I will drive it to get it past them. I think you need to be able to vary your topspin from a loop to a drive.

When close to the table, one easy way to think of things is if the ball is higher than net, like a few CM or higher, you can get away with more solid contact and forward swing. when the ball is lower than net, you need to either back off power, or make less solid contact and make heavier spin to keep your pressure and consistency.

On the higher balls, you can get away with less spin and hit very flat. Even a medium paced flat hit right at the crossover is a difficult ball for opponent to adjust to.

At mid distance, it is a new world. You can get away with more solid contact (you would be doing very high spinny shots if not), but you have to have a lot of spin for control. Otherwise, you will be hitting with less pace, that gives opponent a lot more time to operate, there is less pressure on that.

Many players (like me) who have learned the game in "modern" times seem to emphasize spin a LOT. many of these when faced with a somewhat high ball, or when off the table, tend to spin the ball with less solid contact and less pace in situations that they should be driving the ball or loopdriving with more forward swing and more solid contact.

_________________
Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

I understand what you are saying... the two strokes are quite similar to each other (more about that later).
However, when searching YouTube or any site in which has technique lessons, they separate the two strokes.
Usually, they first teach the "basic strokes" first, which consists of at least the following two strokes:
the drive ("counter-hit" / "counter-drive", etc.) and the push (also depending on who is coaching, the block may also be considered a basic stroke or it may be thought of as an advanced stroke).
Only after mastering these basic strokes, does a coach generally talk about the more advanced strokes, such as the loop, the chop, and the flick (flip).
The loop is an area where it depends on the coaching philosophy. Most coaches choose to think of the loop as a completely separate stroke and that is why there are two different videos for learning the drive and the loop. Some, such as Alois Rosario from pingkills.com [see http://pingskills.com/table-tennis-foru ... s-topspin/] choose to think of the loop as a natural variation of the drive.

Now, as I was saying above, I believe that there are more similarities between the drive and the loop strokes (the respective topspin strokes) than there are between the two backspin strokes, the push and the chop.
The differences between the drive and the loop do not only have to do with how you are contacting the ball (finer contact from the rubber onto the ball vs. more contact on the center of the rubber), but I also believe that the reason every site which I have seen has a separate video for both of the strokes is because, as I had pointed out in my first post, there are slightly different way of generating the strokes for the different emphasis on speed versus spin:
For example: Closing the racquet face more; lower starting contact with the ball to brushing high up to generate more spin; of course while doing these things, you will start to brush the ball with a finer contact, but that is the entire idea. You just watched a video about how to do the topspin stroke. Therefore, in order to get spin on the ball, with all other things staying the same, you would have to brush the ball more.

Now what do you mean by the term "flat hit"? I see that a lot, for example, when looking at short pips...
Obviously, there is a little topspin on the drive. If I were to take my racquet, and not close its angle, leave it flat and hit a drive stroke, would that generate a "flat hit" (or at least a "flatter" hit, depending on what type of racquet I am using)?

Finally, the reason that I do not see as much similarity between the two backspin strokes as there is between the two topspin strokes is that while the push can create a heavy ball shorter on the table, I just do not see the push having the same backspin effect as a chop.
Also, technique-wise, I just do not see the two strokes having much in common. The chop is a longer stroke, whereas the push is short enough that all one needs to do is open up the racquet face a little and "push" (no pun intended) the racquet underneath the ball.
Therefore, I cannot see someone mentioning that "there is no such thing as a push. They are all chops just without using as much force and instead pushing the racquet under the ball."

~J.J.

I think you may have your terminology mixed up. A flat hit is a counterhit. A drive is what some people call a sort of hybrid flattish topspin stroke if that makes any sense (it doesnt to me!lol)

to confuse everyone further, Koreans call a DRIVE a shot with considerable topspin which is what USA folk call a loop.

What Americans call a drive, which is a light topspin shot with medium to fast pace, USA folk call that a drive and Koreans call it a "HWA"

it gets stranger on BH as the BH loop is called a "Back Drive" and what a USA dude calls a BH drive is in Korea called a "SHOAT"

_________________
Goof-off chopping bat
Gambler All Rosewood
Aurus Soft / Gambler GXL .6 sponge

Status - Out of Business Janitor/Babysitter

My question was regarding when to "counter-drive" or "counter-hit" the ball versus when to "loop" it.
Based on most of the answers given so far, I believe that most people understood my question.

When do you add lots of spin to the ball versus when should you hit a faster, "flatter" shot.
The title of my thread uses the verbs "to drive" versus "to loop" in order to distinguish between the two actions...

That is quite interesting that players from Korea call the shots differently. I did not realize that different culture have different terms for the same thing.
And I can see how someone could get confused easily...


Regardless,
So basically, most of the time when you "drive" aka "counter-hit" / "counter-drive" the ball, you are closer to the table. If you are further away from the table, you will have to add even a little more spin to the ball if you want to hit it hard; otherwise (without hitting with spin) you would have to hit slower pace, which would give your opponent an opening. Is that correct?

Also, on lower balls, you need to loop them, because if you were to counter-drive them, you wouldn't have as much margin for error and may hit into the net.

Well, I have to leave to go play some more table tennis for this week!

~J.J.

It doesn't bother me what terminology you use but a drive usually not aka a counterhit. (For eg I would assume Alois did not use the term drive when discussing the counterhit). If you assume they are the same on forums it could lead to confusion. Best use the terms counterhit or flat-hit.

Most orthodox attackers start off using a counterhit, then, as they learn to loop, the loop tends to supplant the counterhit. Flat hitting then usually gets used for blocking and smashing. In saying this, many players prefer to stay closer to the table and to counterhit rather than loop. Which approach you take is a matter of taste and also of realizing where your strengths lie. If you go back from the table however looping is to be recommended over flat hitting.

Many modern attackers loop almost everything. They even flick with spin. They only smash when it's high and if they are unsure they loop it to make the chances of the ball going on the table higher.

Watch Timo Boll and most of the Chinese. Not much flat hitting there at all...

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-Teddy

While Alois chose not to use the term "drive", it is a legitimate and common term within the sport, which most players and fans should know.
In fact, just doing a simple Google search for "Table Tennis Basic Strokes" (I did not even type in "Drive"), I was able to find at least 10 websites which use the term "drive", which include:

http://www.allabouttabletennis.com/tabl ... troke.html
http://www.experttabletennis.com/basic- ... s-strokes/
http://www.megaspin.net/info/basic.asp
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_g ... ennis.html
http://www.sportkc.org/sportkc.aspx?pgID=1330
http://www.tabletennissouthend.co.uk/basic_strokes.html
http://www.pingpongdepot.com/jomvirtue/ ... &Itemid=83
http://master-space.hubpages.com/hub/le ... ble-tennis
http://protabletennis.net/content/coach ... t-course-1
http://www.lcps.org/cms/lib4/VA01000195 ... 33/TTENNIS[1].PDF

In addition, I also even found 4 glossaries of table tennis terms in which the term "Drive" is listed and defined:

http://www.megaspin.net/info/glossary.asp
http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/
http://www.allabouttabletennis.com/tabl ... ology.html
http://www.tabletennis.gr/tt-info/5-tab ... sary-terms

So that's why I thought all of you would know what I am referring to when I use a seemingly universal term within the sport.

~J.J.

I think the drive at streetdirectory.com might have a different meaning.

_________________
Donic Waldner Senso V1,FH Baracuda Big Slam 2.0mm ,BH Victas Triple Regular 2.0mm