OOAK Table Tennis Forum

What are wigglies?

I didn't mean to dismiss these ideas. Quite the opposite, I found it a really useful way to think about how points are playing out. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it was brilliant. I even rushed down to the club and played a couple matches trying to bring in more of that style. it will be interesting to see if the video shows any difference.

My (fairly obvious) point was only that to make this work you have to take control in the serve/receive. You said as much in the OP. So it's not a change I can just make by mindset, like a lot of playing more aggressively is. I can stop pushing back long serves just by willing it. For this I have to bring my skills on the first two balls up to a level that makes it possible.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

BRS, your shots are always at least good enough for the level you are at. I have all the same issues you have but at a higher rating level. That's the thing about style and getting better in TT. What got you here won't get you there, but some of it will - it just has to be done better and better.

Right now, I still pop up serves, still serve long, still have trouble pushing short and still have trouble attacking both short and long serves with my forehand. I push too many serves, can't read spin, and have strokes I take with my elbow too close to my body. Sound familiar?

The popups are just relatively higher quality and the serves are relatively higher quality and the strokes etc. But the style and the issues are still the same and I still need to work on the things you need to work on. The good thing is that you will hopefully have had more time playing this way so you won't have to change your instincts when you have much more to lose or are closer to 2000. Rebuilding whole aspects of my game after having done them a certain way and thought a certain way for so long is not fun.

But playing this way, everything gets better because more and more points become deja vu moments because you have a structure to thinking about them. You will see that. Most of the points I play in matches (both good and bad) can be swapped for each other pretty easily. This is true for many people, but at least I can realize that because all I have to do is remember the last return my opponent popped up or the serves that create issues. My focus isn't on everything about the opponent.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Interesting proposition. While I agree being aggressive as early as you can be is something to aim for, there are many qualifying factors to influence (or tone down) this approach. The quality of the opponent's returns is first and foremost. And by quality, I don't just mean how fast they return. In fact, it can be how slow they return, it can be placement, it can be spin or lack thereof, or it can simply be knowing weaknesses they know you have prone in your game. One weakness they may know in your game is you like to attack early and with a certain return will draw an erroneous attack. Or they may draw an attack that they are confident they can deal with (say a fast block) that they can win the point with. In your video there are examples of points you've won against your opponent in just this way.

So, I don't think early aggression is paramount in every players game.Sure, there are certainly players out there that benefit from this approach...but its not a "one size fits all". When I play someone I am always sizing them up (more so if I don't know their game well), and deciding what approach to take, and what will win me points, or what may lose me points very quickly. Some players you soon see are easier to beat by letting them beat themselves. Some players you do go aggressive at from the get go in a point. But also in that, there is a self-assessment to be done in any given match. "How is my rhythm?". "Am I landing the killer shots, or am I only going to defeat myself by continually missing my attacks?". "Am I better off playing in a safer mode for this one?". Sometimes you can achieve a better result by playing more passively and waiting for the right opportunity (or trying to set up the right opportunity) for attack.

Even in this last night of TT I played, I was making just these decisions against the two opponents I played. The first was a bloke I've never lost to, but have had many tight encounters with. He came out very aggressively and I could see determination in his eyes and his body language. He was looping hard and successfully at me. One loop I recall he landed so short and wide to my FH I had no chance of reaching it, and another he went down the middle at last moment when I'd anticipated him going wide FH again. He had me 10-8 up in the first set (best of 7) and I knew if he got this set, it would set(excuse the pun) the tone for the match. I'd played a mix of passive and aggressive to this point, but I backed off to play smarter and use his aggression to draw errors to bring up deuce and then 12-10 to me. From there on, I kept that mix running smashing him at the right times, missing the odd attack myself, but more so drawing his misses. He didn't take a set. I think the rest of the scoreline was 11-7, 11-1, 11-5.

In the second match I was playing a girl in her early 20's Had only ever lost once to her (from about 5 meetings). She had already blasted my partner off the court. She is massively aggressive from both wings, with her BH being the slightly stronger and more consistent. I usually play to her aggression and win by her misses. Match went down to the wire and she got me in the 7th set 11-7. She lifted her game, by backing off her aggression and looping to me in places she knew I couldn't attack from. Ordinarily I'd have beaten her in a match where I was playing well enough to go this far, because she'd have made many erroneous attacks than she actually made. But she lasted me out, simply because she played more patiently than usual, and made her attacks count. And believe me, this girl hits harder than most men.

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

RebornTTEvnglist,

You are 100% correct. I don't think anything you wrote contradicts what I wrote - it is a matter of emphasis given the people I am trying to reach and the style I play. I am also trying to reach people trying to improve quickly and who largely play a topspin game.

I still have to write about the defensive, quasi-defensive and control options that are usually built into this style of play and what the goal is. You also use long pips, so that makes some of your focus different as you have a greater ability to slow the game down and keep the ball short, which works against some people, but fails against others, especially people from a club like mine where exposure to long pips is fairly frequent.

Slow looping with precise placement and margin is a huge part of my game and you can see it in the match I linked to.

The main audience for this post are players who keep on wondering how to get better or why they are losing to the same players over and over. I wrote a related but more general article on analyzing the first 5 shots of every point. Ultimately, you have to be introducing a weapon early in the point or you are asking for it. Like you said, it could be to provoke an attack that feeds into your defence/counteroffence. However, I don't think that is the primary way one should play, though if one can consistently get weak balls to prey upon playing that way, one should maximize that gift, especially if one is using some kind of pips.

The issue is that many people find it easier to let the opponent miss rather than take their own shots. The latter is what I want to encourage people to do because it gets better faster and improves control of the point.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

The issue is that many people find it easier to let the opponent miss rather than take their own shots. This is what I want to encourage people to do.

Unless you are a well versed classic defender then I agree totally.There is no way to develop a strong game by relying upon just opponent mistakes. Very few defenders I know, get away without some component of an attacking game (although I do know 2 and while they are finessed in this game there are still some who just blow them away).

Even in my own game, where I attempt to force the opponent into error...a lotof those errr I'm after are pop-ups to my kill-waiting FH (and sometimes this is looking for the third ball).

Glad we are on the same page. I just wonder if the message my be a little obscured or misconstrued by some readers (as I was a little - thinking the aim was to encourage almost wanton aggression). Not everyone will write a post like I did for clarification though

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Thanks, Reb. I just edited even my final sentence you quoted after you quoted it because of the ambiguity.

We are on the same page. The issue is in part that consistency does relatively well at the lower levels and messages about being consistent get taken very seriously by some players without coaching. Then the period comes when they can't win by consistency alone but they don't have real problem posing instincts.

Unfortunately, to get comfortable with problem posing instincts, you have to use, push and rebuild your technique to its limits. Otherwise, you will be passing up many legit aggressive opportunities. During this period, a player will likely miss more than normal and seem over aggressive but they will usually come to appreciate what is possible when they move into position and play properly as when they get to the ball on time, even tricky looking balls can sometimes be put away powerfully. So they stop taking safe shots habitually but get an idea of their positional limitations. Then the choices are expanded. This process rinsed and repeats itself as the techniques get improves.

Players without coaching have to do this process in matches. But many players ate not aware of it if they don't get coaching. So I placed the emphasis on aggression because with the aggression experience, limitations and the importance of movement become clearer. But without it, people just repeatedly assume they are making good shots by remaining consistent.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

Thanks NL. Cool shot but not worthy of training time at my level, too many other problems.

One thing I noticed in trying to implement this thread's suggestion is that all my practice looping into block has made me really good at placing the ball exactly in the other guy's power zone. Larry Hodges has written about practicing off the sides of the table, or down the line, not constantly into middle forehand and backhand. Unfortunately I read that but didn't actually change my practice.

At my level a decent loop anywhere often takes control of the point, but with better players going to their power gets killed.

_________________
Smile in the mirror. Do that every morning and you'll start to see a big difference in your life.

Yoko Ono

It's a huge problem with me too. The key is simply to have drills where your opponent is defending half the table and can block to anywhere in your half or all over the table. Play some of these drills as matches.

_________________
Cobra Kai TT Exponent (Mercy effs up your Game)
One-Loop Man: One Loop... Again????
Lumberjack TT Exponent

"We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training" - Archilochus

When I was at a lower level I used to love players who would put a juicy loop at my FH that I could just tee-off on with a kill shot. I have fond memories of some games I got to play this way. These days no-one gives me that...but it does make FH block-kills all the more delicious, even if they don't come along so often (cos you really have to earn - and well anticipate - them by playing a very well controlled shot when a loop is flat, fast and spinny).

_________________
I'm always in the dark, but the Dark sheds lights upon everything!! Beauty is only pimple deep! Beauty is in the eye of the pipholder!
S/U 1: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Andro Rasant 2.1 . BH Red Tibhar Grass Dtecs
S/U 2: Blade: Bty Gergely . FH Black Hexer+ 2.1 . BH Red GD Talon
S/U 3: Blade: Bty Gergely . No rubbers...thinking of adding Red Dtecs and Black Rasant
Aussie Table Tennis Shop / Aussie Table Tennis Facebook Page / Equipment Review Index / Read my Reb Report Blog: click here.

Hah, same people but different forum.

Thanks NL - it was like a pep-talk.

I took this ride in the last 2 months where I learned how to flat hit (both wings always had too much angle). I also learned it's limitations(or my willingness to use it). It's made me a better player, especially when I don't have a lot of time for a shot. However my backhand loop suffered mightily because of all of this. My best weapon turned into a flat hit and I was afraid to loop deep backspin balls into my backhand.

I spent this last weekend hitting backhand loops against the machine until my arm could do no more. I could not allow people to just push to my backhand and feel like that was a safe thing to do. Entirely unacceptable! I'm still working at the backhand loop- but with the backhand flick and loop being used again - it's changed some matchups to my advantage even with 1 weekend.

So yeah thanks for the pep-talk and now I can refocus my efforts where it should be - putting others under pressure.

Really important concepts expressed here!Thank you Next Level,may i ask what is your rank and in what league do you play?