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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 00:11 
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Liquid Evil Chopper
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My club started internal comps recently and I discovered that many players tend to play the short game as it seems to be the least risky approach to just push balls. I can push all day with LP but obviously this is not my style. Any tips on how I could kick start the looping game so I can chop in order to use spin variation to win points? Quite a few of them are doing the short game thingy to prevent me from settling into my game with various degree of success.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 00:40 
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Beer Belly wrote:
My club started internal comps recently and I discovered that many players tend to play the short game as it seems to be the least risky approach to just push balls.
Do you mean they are playing negatively against you as a tactical ploy? if so and you wish them to 'open up' play loose but deep, its very hard to keep things tight from the depths of the table and you should be able to get yr loop in easily if they don't attack you. Not sure I've read yr question right though.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 00:44 
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You have to develop an offensive shot with your LP that can be used to attack pushes [or twiddle and use the reverse]- this will either open up the rally, or win the point outright, or at the very least it will make your opponent think twice - I dont know of any good choppers who cant attack when they need to.

Serving long might invite a controlled attack and skip the short game all together, but you have to be pretty good at cotrolling the first ball that may come at you.

Personally I try to avoid doing very short serves as they are too restricting [usually get a short return and a short game battle!]. Also, when chopping, get a good consistent depth - once you have this, you can 'invite' attacks by playing long deep and ever-so-slightly high balls - forcing your opp to loop.

Best tip i can give though [you probably wont like the answer] - is to develop a strong short game, its part of the game and, as the levels get higher, it becomes more and more important.


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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 01:18 
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Simply push the ball long to the FH.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 07:46 
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speedplay wrote:
If I'm way out of line here, I'm sorry, but I guess what Beer Belly means isn't actually the short ...

Same as me Speedy, I'm not sure of the question, nevertheless, I think you've answered it better than I could haver done.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 08:05 
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I think Beer is implying that he is having difficulty with people that base there game on pushing.

Am I right to say that BeerBelly?

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 08:27 
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I want to say that at that level, when your just starting out, say playing for a couple of years.
People will tend to Push, tend to Block, tend to Smash. I mean the game of pushing might suit them and they choose to do it, but most likely that is all they can do. You cant force them to attack you if them, themselves are not sure.

Even in higher divisions, I still run into guys that dont want to attack (not everyone is a looper), there is a way around that!

You cant force them to attackl without having to pop a ball high so they can kill it or giving weak long balls so they can drive it hard. Just so you can get into a chopping rally(bad habit)

Your in the beginner to intermediate level..... If you want to move up. You have to try not to push it back and come up with a way to attack those balls, flick it or loop it, be confident in yourself and keep it under control.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 08:53 
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I am one of those kind of player that both Speedy and Monkey described. I am no looper. If it is there to attack, it is usually a big smash. Otherwise, I push and push. Mind you, a lot of time, I would dearly love to loop a juicy one but lack of confidence prevents that action. So I almost always ended up pushing. But lately, I have been trying a flick here and there quite successfully but need to be able to consistently and confidently.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 09:12 
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The best answer to this question I ever saw was written by forum member Kagin in a few different posts.

He said...

[The push] should be almost the perfect ball for you. (Maybe the perfect ball would be the one that your opponent hit into the net.) If your opponent wants to push, every option is available to you. If you've trained your footwork it's a third ball loop kill. If you're not there yet but have decent footwork and spin it's a spinny loop setting up for a smash. If you don't trust your topspin, push the ball back. What's the worst that can happen - your opponent loops your push? You're a chopper, that shouldn't be a problem. If they push again, you should have the advantage there too; a chopper shouldn't lose a pushing battle. You should have the advantage both technically and psychologically.

A typical psychological signal that a chopper sends is along the lines of:

I'm steadier than you, have better touch than you, and can chop back all of your loops. I'm patient and have both the fitness and willingness to return 50 balls on every point, and if you can last 50 balls I can last 51. My defense is strong yet if your attack or your push is too weak I'm ready to bring my forehand topspin into play, and I'm ready to test your defense if you prefer. Otherwise, I challenge you to find the weak spot in my defense, and even if you find it you'll have to work hard to use that advantage. I don't give away free points and I don't give up; I will eventually wear you down.


Brilliant stuff.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 09:14 
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Its a matter of timing, how to deal with things, if you decide you want to attack a short ball. You gotta remember the speed is often slow, get into position quickly and go for it! With practise you will be able to do it consistently.

I realised after dropping a grade, it very hard to play a defensive game when only a few people are attacking, very rare to get some good quality balls.

:lol: lol, i played with some people that push so much I thought they should be the one with the pimple!! And not me.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 09:27 
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Any Which Way You Can
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Yes, that stuff by Kagin is brilliant! Very good for building up ones mental belief :D

Monkey, I hope to make that my next stage of progress. A lot of times, me and the opponent would push and push waiting for each other to do the attack. Lots of time, I know what I need to do to attack as I seen enough good players done it. BUT never have the confidence to actually go for it. If I get such a situation again when push comes to shove, I will certainly go for the loop attack and see what happens.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 09:33 
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mynamenotbob wrote:
The best answer to this question I ever saw was written by forum member Kagin in a few different posts.

He said...

[The push] should be almost the perfect ball for you. (Maybe the perfect ball would be the one that your opponent hit into the net.) If your opponent wants to push, every option is available to you. If you've trained your footwork it's a third ball loop kill. If you're not there yet but have decent footwork and spin it's a spinny loop setting up for a smash. If you don't trust your topspin, push the ball back. What's the worst that can happen - your opponent loops your push? You're a chopper, that shouldn't be a problem. If they push again, you should have the advantage there too; a chopper shouldn't lose a pushing battle. You should have the advantage both technically and psychologically.

A typical psychological signal that a chopper sends is along the lines of:

I'm steadier than you, have better touch than you, and can chop back all of your loops. I'm patient and have both the fitness and willingness to return 50 balls on every point, and if you can last 50 balls I can last 51. My defense is strong yet if your attack or your push is too weak I'm ready to bring my forehand topspin into play, and I'm ready to test your defense if you prefer. Otherwise, I challenge you to find the weak spot in my defense, and even if you find it you'll have to work hard to use that advantage. I don't give away free points and I don't give up; I will eventually wear you down.


Brilliant stuff.


Hey, what a way with words! Love to hear more from him. Great way of thinking also for a developing attacker.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 09:41 
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When we first started playing tt and comps. My team was LawOCG, turtle and rossicarbon. We was in C grade. We was able to take out all the comps that year, both teams and individual.
I had normal rubber at the time, we was so successfull. What helped us along the way was our failure to push back to our opponents, we just keep on attacking those balls.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 09:54 
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I hate pushing. Very boring. One trick I learned is to push deep to the F/H side of his crossover. Not at the crossover cause he will just push it back. You want him to attack BUT! You want a controlled attack from him. You should allow him to attack when you want him to. If he has good footwork be ready to get back to chop. If he tries to hit a big loop while he is falling backwards be ready because more often than not, that loop will come off your B/H side. If your good enough to twiddle. You can just block it down his F/H side. Or you can chop it back and wait for his next attack.
A lot of the upper players will get bored with pushing and end up trying to flick a short ball past you. Unless you have very good reflexes its hard to see which way the ball is coming. I try not to let it get that far.

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PostPosted: 03 Jun 2009, 18:56 
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Yes, the Kagin view is descriptively brilliant IMO.

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