OOAK Table Tennis Forum


A truly International Table Tennis Community for both Defensive and Offensive styles!
Live Table Tennis Videos Table Tennis News Live OOAK Forum Links About OOAK Table Tennis Forum OOAK Forum Memory
It is currently 24 Apr 2017, 05:21


Don't want to see any advertising? Become a member and login, and you'll never see an ad again!



All times are UTC + 9:30 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 15:28 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 30 May 2011, 22:19
Posts: 382
Location: India
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
Carbonman, guess you know little about the new slick antis, don't ya? ;)
Tell me, which legal pips comes close to a, let's say, Nightmare regarding spin reversal!

_________________
Equipment: Evo MX-P 2.2 - On Elmstreet - Timeless 1.9


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: 21 May 2012, 20:00 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2466
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
lol slick - ive probably played against 10 or so antis over the years as well as a lot of home-made antis when they weren't illegal (dishcloth sponge, oven baked rubber, sun-dried pimples etc.) but I confess I have never faced the dreaded Nightmare. :sweat: I will take your word for it that it that it has spectacular reversal properties. However, if it is anything at all like other antis at all I honestly can't imagine why it is so scary. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 02:33 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 30 May 2011, 22:19
Posts: 382
Location: India
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
Actually, I would not place the new generation slick antis in a row with classical ones, it's definitively a different class of rubber, with the main difference being reversal, paid by difficult taming of the beast.

_________________
Equipment: Evo MX-P 2.2 - On Elmstreet - Timeless 1.9


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 09:03 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2466
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
I take it that the Nightmare is not just a shiny surface atop a dampner sponge like other antis? what are it properties then?

Does it miraculous reversal powers extend to chopping loops? ie does it produce more backspin against loop than LP does?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 15:40 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 30 May 2011, 22:19
Posts: 382
Location: India
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
carbonman wrote:
I take it that the Nightmare is not just a shiny surface atop a dampner sponge like other antis? what are it properties then?

Does it miraculous reversal powers extend to chopping loops? ie does it produce more backspin against loop than LP does?
Yes, it really does! However, you don't chop on loops just block - and get huge reversal. It acts like a mirror made of glass. It is not quite the same as with ancient frictionless LP, but comes close. The only other anti I know that even supersedes this feature is the Neubauer Gorilla which is even much more difficult to tame. I personally stick with the (too expensive ;( ) Joola Timeless, which is a tiny bit worse in reversal than the Nightmare but way easier to control.

_________________
Equipment: Evo MX-P 2.2 - On Elmstreet - Timeless 1.9


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 16:04 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2466
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
It sounds like just an anti with a very shiny surface - is that inaccurate? Does it have a dead 'sponge' like other antis? Is the topsheet plastic-like like other antis? If not what is it like? Is it like an inverted bat left in the Sun?

The thing is though is that you can have mirror like surfaces and get great reversal (such as you do with a stainless steel frypan) but at the end of the day reversal is not difficult to play against for a moderately experienced player. Also, the slicker the surface the more limiting it is and the more difficult it is to control. Most blockers with regular anti that I have faced have great trouble blocking deep arcing loops - i would imagine it would be an even tougher task with your slick buddies (?). :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 18:11 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 30 May 2011, 22:19
Posts: 382
Location: India
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
The control problems of slick antis are mainly with dumb, i.e. spinless balls. No good slick-anti player fears loops of any strength. My view is that almost no player I had as an opponent at least up to German 4th league, USATT 2200, Chinese 5th league (analogue), Turkish 1st league, Indian 3rd league (these are my personal maximal experiences during the last year) loops more than, let's say, three to five times against a slick anti*. If he does not happen to loop the first one as a winner, the looper usually has already lost most points. Of course, as soon as he is forced to slow down his pace, it is up to you to introduce your fh and win the point. The anti usually does not make points against good players but provides you with the chance to make your game - even at my age in the mid-50th with not that quick a forehand anymore (my reason to switch to anti was that I was no more quick enough to accept every ball by fh; and I had no bh loop even in my very best years). If I loose, than it is not because of the anti but because of my fh that is no more the same it used to be. I also must confess that during the last year when I practiced a lot to tame the anti I lost much of my fh capabilities. Now when I have chance to practice with some very good Chinese partners, I will eagerly work on this.

BTW If you want to learn more about slick antis you may look at viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11598 where there is comparison of the most popular ones.

*with the major exception of players who have the chance to practice on a regular base against a slick anti at their club.

_________________
Equipment: Evo MX-P 2.2 - On Elmstreet - Timeless 1.9


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 18:53 
Offline
The EJ's Boogyman
The EJ's Boogyman
User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010, 12:20
Posts: 2466
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 124 times
Fair enough, I guess our experiences are different. I have played a few US2100 ish anti blockers over the last year or so and they seriously struggled to block more than 2 deep solid loops back. In fact, more often than not, they missed the first one. It's mainly the depth they have trouble with.

Even at a higher level it can be tough. I remember when the 2 colour rule came in Australian Champion Gary Haberl gave up anti as it was no longer viable. It was much harder for him to block decent loops than it was for players to loop against his anti.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 19:32 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 30 May 2011, 22:19
Posts: 382
Location: India
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
You are absolutely right in many respects. I myself played classical anti before slick ones, and all experienced looper could swipe me off the table. However, I learned to twiddle at the time and to when I lived in the US I learned about Seemiller grip, which gave me a lot of power back. I do not need to twiddle any more with slick anti, but still use Seemiller. The other true remark is: The decision usually falls upon the first loop. Is this good enough to break the barrier, the looper is fine. However, this is rarely found. It depends on the quality (length!) of the anti player and of his return upon your service. So it is the game before he first loop that defines much of how good the first loop can be. However, against most opponents I do not fear the first loop at all, and I invite them to just do it by serving long usually to their elbow.

_________________
Equipment: Evo MX-P 2.2 - On Elmstreet - Timeless 1.9


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 19:53 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 10 May 2012, 00:36
Posts: 41
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Slick wrote:
You are absolutely right in many respects. I myself played classical anti before slick ones, and all experienced looper could swipe me off the table. However, I learned to twiddle at the time and to when I lived in the US I learned about Seemiller grip, which gave me a lot of power back. I do not need to twiddle any more with slick anti, but still use Seemiller. The other true remark is: The decision usually falls upon the first loop. Is this good enough to break the barrier, the looper is fine. However, this is rarely found. It depends on the quality (length!) of the anti player and of his return upon your service. So it is the game before he first loop that defines much of how good the first loop can be. However, against most opponents I do not fear the first loop at all, and I invite them to just do it by serving long usually to their elbow.


Same here.. I tempt the opponent to hit spinny loops by serving long serves so that i can block it back short and with good placement,and if i am succesful in doing that then the return for my short block will be loose ball,then my forehand comes into play and kill it by smash or powerloop.. Hence for my style of game, blocking short with reversal is very important to make up the loose balls for my forehand. Nightmare is a most slick anti(havent tried myself yet.. have ordered it online..its on the way.. i am excited) - i believe since it has smoothest surface as most of the ppl say compared to any anti,then i think it provides the least friction during the contact of the ball and hence 60 to 80 % of the topspin should be sent back to opponent considering some of the spin is lost due to air friction too. I have no doubt about nightmare reversal but i am not sure whether it is consistent in blocking the heavy loops..

@Slick - 1)since you have already tried Nightmare, were you successfull in putting the ball where ever you wanted consistently using anti - mainly block, counter ,push?
2)One more question is nightmare(1.2) - is it too fast to block short using stiga allround evolution blade?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 20:09 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 10 May 2012, 00:36
Posts: 41
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
carbonman wrote:
Fair enough, I guess our experiences are different. I have played a few US2100 ish anti blockers over the last year or so and they seriously struggled to block more than 2 deep solid loops back. In fact, more often than not, they missed the first one. It's mainly the depth they have trouble with.

Even at a higher level it can be tough. I remember when the 2 colour rule came in Australian Champion Gary Haberl gave up anti as it was no longer viable. It was much harder for him to block decent loops than it was for players to loop against his anti.


Hi carbonman - Do you know which antis where the people(who often failed to block successfull considering the player is good player) who you played against were using?


Regarding your earlier posts --> yes I do agree some of the flexible pips do provide good reversal or i would better reversal than most of the antis(except nightmare as i havent tried yet myself),but these flexible pips generate maximum reversal with player action/stroke eg chopping away from table and chop blocks. If the pip out player brushes under the ball heavily then definitely reversal would be there.. But again i would say this is a different style of game..This flexible pips is only useful if the player is regular away from the table chopper like chen weixing. My case, i rarely go away from the table and my game is near the table play and so my forehand rubber ie hurricane 2 also is suitable for my close to the table play.

Now for the close to the table play --> I have seen many players using long pimples for close to the table play but for the blocks they have to do chop block strokes which i am not comfortable against high rank players as there loops will powerfull enough and dont give me enough time to complete my chop block stroke as i stay near the table. It works excellent against intermediate players. Here comes the need of slick antis for me. Slick antis are very good in just placing the racket against the powerful loops, in this stroke all you need to concentrate is the pitch of the powerful loop and place the racket thats it...since this being the smoothest rubber the block return is not easy for the opponent for sure.. the opponent has to recover his position from his earlier stroke and then position himself for this short blocks to hit again.. most of the time due to lack to time opponent even a very good opponent tries to just place the short blocks back to me.. This gives me an opportunity to attack with my powerful forehand..... This is my game style.. for this very important for me is to get an anti which blocks consistently ans give short.... This is just my oppinion may be i am incorrect.. let me know if you think otherwise.. discussion helps gaining knowledge and experience.....

Thanks to both SLICK and CARBONMAN for making this post little more lively.. :)))))))))


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 20:21 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 10 May 2012, 00:36
Posts: 41
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
carbonman wrote:
It sounds like just an anti with a very shiny surface - is that inaccurate? Does it have a dead 'sponge' like other antis? Is the topsheet plastic-like like other antis? If not what is it like? Is it like an inverted bat left in the Sun?

The thing is though is that you can have mirror like surfaces and get great reversal (such as you do with a stainless steel frypan) but at the end of the day reversal is not difficult to play against for a moderately experienced player. Also, the slicker the surface the more limiting it is and the more difficult it is to control. Most blockers with regular anti that I have faced have great trouble blocking deep arcing loops - i would imagine it would be an even tougher task with your slick buddies (?). :)


Hi Carbonman - Do you know which antis where the people(who often failed to block successfull considering the player is good player) who you played against were using? This helps us to understand whether the material is difficult to block or the player problem.. actually some manufacturers claim there product as slick but in practical they are still have the grip and reacts to the incoming spin to some extent... your information will help me..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 20:23 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 10 May 2012, 00:36
Posts: 41
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
hello9959 wrote:
carbonman wrote:
It sounds like just an anti with a very shiny surface - is that inaccurate? Does it have a dead 'sponge' like other antis? Is the topsheet plastic-like like other antis? If not what is it like? Is it like an inverted bat left in the Sun?

The thing is though is that you can have mirror like surfaces and get great reversal (such as you do with a stainless steel frypan) but at the end of the day reversal is not difficult to play against for a moderately experienced player. Also, the slicker the surface the more limiting it is and the more difficult it is to control. Most blockers with regular anti that I have faced have great trouble blocking deep arcing loops - i would imagine it would be an even tougher task with your slick buddies (?). :)


Hi Carbonman - Do you know which antis where the people(who often failed to block successfull considering the player is good player) who you played against were using? This helps us to understand whether the material is difficult to block or the player problem.. actually some manufacturers claim there product as slick but in practical they are still have the grip and reacts to the incoming spin to some extent... your information will help me..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 20:27 
Offline
New Member

Joined: 10 May 2012, 00:36
Posts: 41
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Slick wrote:
You are absolutely right in many respects. I myself played classical anti before slick ones, and all experienced looper could swipe me off the table. However, I learned to twiddle at the time and to when I lived in the US I learned about Seemiller grip, which gave me a lot of power back. I do not need to twiddle any more with slick anti, but still use Seemiller. The other true remark is: The decision usually falls upon the first loop. Is this good enough to break the barrier, the looper is fine. However, this is rarely found. It depends on the quality (length!) of the anti player and of his return upon your service. So it is the game before he first loop that defines much of how good the first loop can be. However, against most opponents I do not fear the first loop at all, and I invite them to just do it by serving long usually to their elbow.


Hi Slick -- Since you have tried many slick antis... Could you please give your opinion on the below:

I always dont know how to block or handle the opponents smashes? What do you think is the best way to handle these smasesh with slick antis?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 May 2012, 21:17 
Offline
Super User

Joined: 30 May 2011, 22:19
Posts: 382
Location: India
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
hello9959 wrote:
Slick wrote:
You are absolutely right in many respects. I myself played classical anti before slick ones, and all experienced looper could swipe me off the table. However, I learned to twiddle at the time and to when I lived in the US I learned about Seemiller grip, which gave me a lot of power back. I do not need to twiddle any more with slick anti, but still use Seemiller. The other true remark is: The decision usually falls upon the first loop. Is this good enough to break the barrier, the looper is fine. However, this is rarely found. It depends on the quality (length!) of the anti player and of his return upon your service. So it is the game before he first loop that defines much of how good the first loop can be. However, against most opponents I do not fear the first loop at all, and I invite them to just do it by serving long usually to their elbow.


Hi Slick -- Since you have tried many slick antis... Could you please give your opinion on the below:

I always dont know how to block or handle the opponents smashes? What do you think is the best way to handle these smasesh with slick antis?

Smashes are one of the great problems I also encounter with slick antis (SA). There is a point when the SA fails, i.e. when the smash is powerful enough to bottom out, so that the wood is taking most of its energy. Since from that power on there is no more dampening effect, you have to use your blade just almost as you do with a grippy rubber: Although you typically block incoming loops with your blade ±wide open, now you have to close your bat. It is a major matter of experience and training to know when your anti will bottom. An alternative to this is go into long defense as soon as you anticipate a smash. It is not difficult to return smashes (if you reach them, of course) with the SA in a balloon style of defense. These balls have so much wobble and reversal, too, so that many opponents will not hit successfully a second time, though almost all will try (so you rarely have to fear they catch you short). However, best is not to let them smash ;).

@carbonman, hello9959 is certainly right. I did not consider long defense using lp in my discussion. This in fact may produce good reversal but imho with the disadvantage that everybody can read the spin, which is produced by arm and wrist movement everyone can see. I love lp long defenders in my class (and some classes above)!

BTW if one is looking for an SA for an attacking style of anti game, he may also look at the Joola Amy Control (0.6).

_________________
Equipment: Evo MX-P 2.2 - On Elmstreet - Timeless 1.9


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next




All times are UTC + 9:30 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Copyright 2012 OOAK Table Tennis Forum. The information on this site cannot be reused without written permission.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




Don't forget to 'LIKE' our forum on Facebook if you enjoy the content: